Okay, I got saved in September of 2013.
It was pretty dramatic and radical.
I'm so thankful to Jesus Christ for saving
me.
My mom was in the Campbellite Church of
Christ for her whole life until about three
months ago.
It was and still can be at times
a struggle to get her to see that
we are saved by grace apart from works
like keeping rules and especially water baptism.
I moved closer to her when she was
going into hospice and now we're going to
a Baptist church in town.
I came from a Calvary chapel where sharing
testimonies is a common thing, so I never
thought anything about it.
I was looking at joining this Baptist church
and one of the things to officially join
is to give your testimony.
I would love to share what Christ did.
No problem.
Now my mom is a different story.
She gets angry and defensive about her testimony
even to the point of claiming she doesn't
know what people mean by testimony and gets
upset that a church would want to hear
it as a condition for membership.
So A, is it biblical to make someone
give their testimony for membership?
And B, should I be concerned that despite
growing up in a cult that denies the
deity of Jesus Christ and adds baptism as
a condition of salvation, she claims to be
saved but has no conversion story?
So let's just talk about testimonies.
What do you think about testimonies?
Giving of testimonies.
Good, bad, indifferent?
Depends on the content.
Depends on what?
The content.
The content of?
What they're actually sharing, saying.
Is it a bragamony?
Is it an actual testimony?
Is it just a reaction to even being
asked?
Yeah, it seems I've heard people talk like
that before.
I don't even know what a testimony means.
I mean, that seems to be a void
in the life.
It means something's missing.
It's asking a person about a reality in
their life that isn't a reality.
It's asking a person to describe something that
they've never seen, and so they really have
no description.
I mean, a testimony is not essential to
join membership, right?
What?
A testimony is not essential to join a
church or be part of a membership, right?
Like sharing your testimony.
I don't like the way she said that.
Right?
Isn't that something that...
Because the question was like, okay, right?
The testimony needs to be shared to be
joined into a membership.
Is that biblical?
To require your testimony?
Is it biblical for someone to say their
testimony?
He says, Is it biblical to make someone
give their testimony for membership?
I can't think of any explicit biblical commands
that say you have to give your testimony
before joining the church.
Yeah, but is it not...
Well, I mean, a testimony is just like
a witness to something that you've seen or
something that you've experienced.
And if you truly know the Lord Jesus
Christ, then you automatically have a testimony.
And I just kind of see it as
something that's a joy to share.
I mean, look, the reality is that God's
people all through history, if somebody's walking through
their door, there's going to be an inquiry
into are you a Christian?
What has the Lord done for you?
I mean, that's commonplace.
If we're going to talk about fellowship in
the things of the Lord, what did Jesus
tell the demoniac?
The demoniac wanted to...
I mean, he's no longer a demoniac.
He's closed in on his right mind.
Now he wants to stay with the Lord
and the Lord tells him, No, I want
you to go home.
You go to your own people and you
tell them the things that the Lord has
done for you.
The Lord doesn't even bat an eye.
That's normal that that's going to happen when
somebody gets radically changed and is a partaker
of the grace of God.
They're going to talk about it.
The Scripture talks about those who deny Christ.
The reality is that God's people are people
who are going to proclaim the glories of
Christ.
In fact, that's one of the things that
Peter says is a reality about the people
of God.
Can you think what he says there?
He can't help but talk and proclaim about
what we've seen and heard.
He says that to St. Adrian.
But I mean Peter in his epistles.
What does he say we are?
Members have an answer to proclaim His excellencies.
Yeah, right there.
We are a people expressly said to be
saved to proclaim His excellencies.
I mean, it's for somebody not to want
to say what Christ has done for them.
I mean, it's the greatest thing in the
world.
I mean, we all want to talk about
the greatest things that have happened to us
in our lives, the greatest things that have
ever been given to us.
This is the most amazing, the most incredible,
the most marvelous and glorious thing that can
happen in any person's life is that they
be born again, they be saved by God,
they be wrenched out of the kingdom of
darkness into the kingdom of God's dear Son.
And Jesus just assumes.
It's normative.
Go to your hometown and what are you
going to do?
You're going to tell them the great things
that the Lord has done for you.
So, it's like, is it required for membership?
Well, look, the reality is this.
Are you going to find, thou shalt give
your testimony?
No, you don't find that.
But if somebody's going to be added to
the people of God, I mean, for one
thing, oftentimes in those early churches, like if
somebody was moving from one church to another,
letters would be sent.
I mean, you hear Paul even writing in
some of his epistles, well, when so-and
-so comes to you, receive him and this
person and that person.
And what's that all about?
Well, it's not only the person coming in
with the testimony, you have to think in
days when the church was being heavily persecuted,
can you imagine if you were behind the
Iron Curtain in Russia?
Or even today, you see how they're cracking
down in China?
It's getting worse and worse all the time
in China.
But if we were in the underground church
and somebody walks through the door, it's probably
not even enough to hear their testimony.
You'd probably really like it if the church
over in Wenzhou from which they came from,
they're coming over to, I don't know, Kunming,
and they say, you know, I'm from there,
I've transferred for work and found the underground
church, I've been recommended to come here.
I mean, it'd be nice to get letters
from the elders back there saying, hey, this
guy's legit.
He really has been born again.
To have that testimony even authenticated by others
besides himself if you're in an environment like
that, which it seems like maybe in the
days of Paul 2,000 years ago it
was.
But for somebody to come in and say,
I didn't even know what a testimony is.
I mean, aside from whether or not you
believe in an official church membership or not,
you certainly want to know if people are
regenerate.
What in the world has God done for
them?
The last thing you would think is that
it would be a task or that you
would be slow to do that if Peter,
the other text, is that we ought to
have a reason for the hope that's within
us.
You ought to be able to give that
reason to lost and to saved alike.
If somebody walks through the door, what's your
hope?
I mean, Peter expects that you should have
an answer to that.
Well, my hope is...
I mean, we ask oftentimes, you know, if
you were to die tonight and be standing
before the Lord, on what basis would you
be taken into heaven?
We should have an answer for the hope
that we have, every one of us.
And the very fact that this mother went
through the church of Christ, didn't believe in
the deity of Christ, believed that water baptism
was necessary for salvation, I mean, those things
coupled with the fact that she doesn't want
to give a testimony that that does not
bode well for her spiritual condition.
Actually, I didn't know that was a distinction
about the church of Christ.
They actually denied the Lord's deity?
I didn't either, but he says so.
So, I mean, it sounds to me like
that's his mother's belief even if that's not
the church of Christ belief at large, because
I've never heard that either.
I was looking for this verse, but it's
in 1 John 5.9. It says, If
we receive the testimony of man, the testimony
of God is greater.
For this is the testimony of God that
He is born concerning His Son.
Whoever believes in the Son of God has
the testimony in himself.
He doesn't really expand on what the testimony
is specifically.
He just says, like, you have it in
yourself.
So it's like, it's almost like when you
give your testimony, you're verbally expressing before everyone,
I mean, all the details that led up
to you believing in the Son of God.
I mean, it has logistics, details.
People share intimate things.
I mean, it's encouraging for the whole church
really.
They're just expressing everything that happened up until
that point.
That seems like what a testimony is.
Like it's in you, and you're giving it
to everybody else.
Yeah, it's a witness.
We witness to what we have been witnesses
to.
I thought of, there was a guy who
I'd met in college one year.
He'd ask, like, why do Christians have to
share what they believe so much?
And I thought of what Jesus says, out
of the abundance of the heart, the mouth
speaks.
And it's like if your heart is full
like what you were saying, it's like if
the testimony is in you, if your heart,
if you have a love for Jesus, I
think you're going to want to speak about
what your heart is full of.
Just on the reverse, I don't get the
sense whatsoever that Martin Lloyd-Jones was opposed
to people being able to express what the
Lord had done for them.
But he was opposed to having those testimonies
stated publicly.
And he himself sought to talk very little
about himself from the pulpit and his own
experiences and his own testimony to things because
his fear was that other people would measure
themselves.
He was afraid of the guy that stands
up, whether it's himself or somebody else, and
gives this glowing testimony.
Then you have people sitting out there in
the audience and their own testimony is different,
perhaps 100% valid, but different.
And it seems like very often it's kind
of like I talked about before Lloyd-Jones'
wife actually wishing that she had been like
this hardened sinner when she got saved so
that it would have been more drastic and
more reassuring to her.
And sometimes you get these testimonies of people
who were so debauched and so wicked and
very supernatural testimony of this transformation of life.
And what it can actually do is it
can leave people thinking, maybe I'm not genuinely
saved.
It can actually shatter some people's confidence and
assurance.
And I know that Brother Charles was telling
me about pastors that some of us in
this room know and that there being a
circle of churches where, and I think James
dealt with this last week, but there being
a circle of churches where you have to
have such a radical testimony and you have
to know the day you got saved.
And if you don't have this radical I
know exactly when I got saved kind of
experience, then basically they don't believe that you've
legitimately been saved.
And so, you get in circles like that
and it seems like lots of these people
who come into those circles may have legitimately
been saved, but then they're made to think
that they haven't been and they need to
have one of these experiences.
And I think in the very same circles,
if I remember correctly, it takes the same
kind of call to the ministry to ever
believe that you're actually called to pastor.
You have to have these radical experiences.
And like I say, they're men who we
know.
Circles that come pretty close to us.
I was thinking, like, is it possible maybe
his mom is kind of like Timothy to
where he was acquainted with the Scriptures and
I don't think Timothy probably had a vain
flash of light testimony.
His grandmother and his mother were saved.
But I guess the concern with his mom,
the guy asking the question, is her getting
defensive.
Timothy says, I think the defensive thing is
probably concerning.
Because I think for somebody to say, you
know, I wasn't saved seeing fire fall from
heaven like somebody we've heard.
I didn't see any visible flash of light
and I didn't come out of some really
wicked and debauched background.
I grew up in a Christian family.
I was taught Scriptures from a child.
I don't know when it happened, but I
can tell you this, right now, my only
hope is Christ.
He's my hope now.
And that's really what matters.
Because I'll tell you this, over the 30
years or so that I've been saved, you
can find people that can tell you the
exact date, but then I can tell you
the exact date when they weren't in the
church anymore and when they had fallen away.
I can see how Marlo Jones was careful
on that because to be honest, I've had
temptations or thoughts about that specific aspect of
hearing a super radical testimony and looking at
mine.
But I once heard John Piper, I think
he was saved at a very young age.
I don't know how the question went, but
it was more like, you didn't get to
do all these bad things and you were
spared from them.
And I think what was encouraging was that
he said that I was still dead in
my trespasses and sins at five years old,
but God saved me.
So it doesn't matter what type of testimony
you have, you were all dead, but God.
So that was encouraging to me.
And the blind man, I know I was
blind, but now I see.
So that's also a Scripture I go to
when temptation comes because there's no other explanation.
And I will just say this about testimonies.
Testimonies can often be an occasion for great
displays of pride and exalting one's lost life
and almost boasting in the sins of one's
lost days.
Remember, when Jesus said something to the demoniac,
oh, he could have told all manner of
stories about the sins he was involved with
when he was lost.
But you notice the thing that he wanted
that man to focus on.
You go to tell those people the great
things the Lord has done for you.
And if you're going to talk about yourself
in your testimony, let it truly be humbling
and debasing.
And let the Lord shine through it all.
Because...
How would you consider the Scripture where the
woman at the table says, He has told
me all the things that I've done?
I don't know.
You said about that as far as sin
being put out there.
Isn't that like the same style of testimony?
Well, to say what He saved you out
of I think can be done in a
way that is set forth in a way
that humbles you and exalts Him.
And there are ways that it can be
set forth where it just sounds like you're
wanting everybody to know what kind of sinner
you were.
I've heard some of the most inappropriate things
come forth in people's testimonies.
And it's just inappropriate.
It's not necessary.
They're exalting themselves.
It doesn't feel like they're exalting the Lord.
It just feels wrong.
It feels bad.
I know some refer to Ephesians 5 not
to speak of the things done in gardens.
I don't know if that's a good application
of that text or not.
I was thinking of Romans 6.
Maybe Romans 5 and 6 where Paul is
kind of talking about you've died to sin.
If you think of something that you're dead
to, it's not a pretty picture.
It's not something you boast about.
And then he also says, what fruit did
you gain from the things of which you
are now ashamed?
Our sin should bring shame, not something that
we boast about.
It's something that we're dead to.
It's something gross, not beautiful.
I think if you tell your testimony in
a way that if a lost guy was
sitting on the front row and he was
dead in his trespasses in all the sins
that you used to run in, and you
tell your testimony in a way that it
feels like you're making yourself out to be
superior to him in the life that he's
now living, like you would have talked when
you were lost and he was lost and
you're basically saying, you know, I'm a better
drinker, I'm a better this, I'm a better
that than you are.
I mean, if it sounds like you're basically
trying to compete with the lost guy in
the front row, that can't be good.
You know what?
There's ways to talk about our sin that
are really humbling to self.
I mean, here's the thing.
There can be aspects of your lost life
that you boast in.
You're kind of proud about it.
And it comes out in the testimony.
There are things you did when you were
lost that you are deeply ashamed of and
it's amazing how they can kind of be
glossed over in the telling of a testimony,
but if you really bring out the things
that you're deeply ashamed about so that when
you say it, and then you turn everything
to the glory of the Lord and having
mercy on your soul, you know it.
I mean, you know that there are certain
things that you can talk about when you're
lost that actually the lost world admires.
But there are things lost or saved that
you could say about yourself that it makes
you ashamed.
I mean, there's real shame about some of
the things that we did.
I think it's good when you tell your
testimony to speak of the things that you're
ashamed of when it comes to you, and
then just speak of the glorious things that
the Lord has done for you.
I think at any point where you're trying
to get glory in your testimony, that's a
problem.
The Lord should be getting all the glory.
It's not about you.
You shouldn't even come into the equation.
It's all about what He has done.
Yeah, one guy can say, well, I did
this when I was lost.
And the next guy's like, yeah, well, I
did this when I was lost.
And the third guy's like, yeah, no, I
did this when I was lost.
And it's like, guys, you know what I
did behind a closed door when I was
lost?
And everybody recognized right away you're not trying
to compete with the others.
You're seeing it as a shameful thing, not
a thing to boast in.
And if we could see all of it
for what it is, we would be horribly
ashamed.
Further on in Mark 5, notice that woman
with the issue of blood.
It's always stuck out to me.
Christ looked around to see who had touched
Him.
The woman, knowing what happened to her, came
in fear and trembling and fell down before
Him and told Him the whole truth.
And He said there, your faith has made
you well.
I don't know what was contained in the
whole truth she was sharing that she touched
Christ, but in some way, He kind of
made her give a testimony right after being
healed.
He didn't let her just sneak away in
the crowd.
And she was terrified to be publicly speaking
about her illness.
I don't know how shameful it was to
have that issue of blood back then, but
here everyone knew about it.
But then they knew about Christ.
Well, it was probably a womanly issue of
blood.
She'd spent all of her money on doctors.
Nobody had been able to cure her.
I'm sure she would have gladly gotten away
in the crowd and not have to openly
speak about it.
Pastor Tim, do you think that when there's
a pride issue about when people share their
testimony and being prideful about their sin, do
you think it's not the right view of
sin?
Like we lose that view of sin when
we hear people boasting about it?
Does that make sense?
Well, we definitely can.
You should read, I think James has quoted
it recently, Precious Remedies Against Satan's Devices.
Did you quote that or did somebody else?
You should read that.
He talks about how Satan seeks to paint
sin in nice colors and make it very
presentable.
Oh, it's tremendous.
I mean, among the Puritan writings, it's some
of the best stuff you can read.
Precious Remedies.
And there's a little Puritan paperback.
I'm sure it wouldn't cost you all that
much to buy that.
But he just says, you know, you need
to think about these sins.
These sins killed Christ.
And he describes Christ hanging on that cross.
And he describes the sufferings.
You just remember these sins that you tend
to prize.
It's like lost guys, their idolatry.
Well, sports was my idolatry.
I chased women and I had a more
beautiful one than you did.
And yeah, the things that when we were
lost, we prided ourselves in.
When we were lost, all of us had
certain reputations.
All of us had a certain image that
we wanted to portray.
We were this or we were that.
We could do this better than other people.
We could do that.
We were more skilled.
We were more adept at it.
We were known for...
There's no question that there's some sins that
we tend to more glamorize.
We tend to find more acceptable.
Even among Christians, there are some sins that
they're more allowed and smiled upon, that they're
just as ugly.
And I highly recommend that book.
I think you'd all very much profit from
it.
Tim, you may have touched on this, but
I think before I moved to Austin, the
church had a practice of what people would
publicly give the testimony.
And I think when someone came back, it
was all towards email.
So I was wondering as elders...
Yes, basically the reason for it, I'm not
specifically remembering that some of my own priorities
in doing that had to do with Lloyd
-Jones reasons for people measuring themselves.
I'm not saying that was the primary issue.
For us, I believe that the primary issue
was just the fact that it felt like
we just had too much inappropriateness in those
testimonies.
And sometimes, quite honestly, what the people said
to us in private seemed considerably different from
what sometimes would be said when the person
was up there publicly speaking.
And I guess we had enough situations occur
where at least I, I'll let James speak
for himself, but we had enough situations occur
where people were giving testimonies where I sat
out there extremely uncomfortable that eventually I felt
that...
I may too.
Yeah.
Okay, I'll let James speak for himself.
I guess on a smaller scale, it was
just we wanted to have a prayer meeting
and they would go too long sometimes and
we wouldn't have enough time to pray.
That was one of the things we discussed.
Okay.
I mean, it can be really, it can
be a real blessing to have people give
testimonies.
I mean, I have found at times it's
a remarkable blessing.
But then again, I'm not aware to what
degree like Nellie and others might experience just
what Lloyd-Jones was afraid of, somebody giving
their testimony and other people seeking to measure
themselves by it and feeling maybe that they
don't measure up.
So perhaps it's good to give an array
of testimonies almost in a kind of selective
fashion just to show that there is a
broad range.
You do have your Timothys who probably didn't
know when they were converted.
You have the disciples who I would imagine
it's probably hard to pin down exactly through
the Gospels when they were saved.
The truth is, there are people that have
very, very distinct experiences at a very distinct
point in time.
But other people have very distinct experiences several
times.
And some people, they just know that the
sun came out kind of during these hours.
They don't know exactly when it broke over
the horizon, but it did.
And we recognize that really, the experience we
had when we first got saved, that's not
the most important aspect.
What's really critical is always the now.
Are we believing now?
Are we pressing on now?
Are we holding tight now?
Today, while it's yet day, are we believing?
Are we trusting the promises?
This is what Scripture is exhorting us to
do.
It's to keep embracing now.
It's to be living in faith and running
the race with our eyes set upon the
Lord now.
That's the real issue.
The last thing God would have us to
do is trust in an event in the
past.
I was going to say, do you think
you need to be careful?
Oh, this is the exact time and place,
because you don't want to put confidence in
that.
I know you said in a previous Bible
study, you said, I'm not looking back to
an event 28 years ago to determine my
current standing with the Lord.
You want to be careful not to say,
oh, I had this experience so-and-so
years ago, so I'm good now.
Jesus says, I'm here, the wind, but you
don't know where it's going.
So you don't want to look to a
particular experience.
Well, I don't want to forget the past.
I don't want to ignore the past.
I don't want to ignore God's blessings of
the past.
I think about those things.
I don't think that that would be wrong
at all to remember the Lord's dealings with
me in the past.
The past is often a good motivator for
how we pray and how we deal with
the Lord now.
I mean, there is something to, Lord, have
You brought me this far to abandon me
here?
I mean, have You done all these things
up till now to not to leave me
here, to leave me alone, to depart from
me, to abandon me?
I mean, certainly You haven't.
You also quoted Scripture.
I think it's in Colossians where it says
the things you used to do.
It's like a famous Scripture of yours that
you like to use.
Do you know?
Do the things you did at first.
Have you received the Lord Jesus Christ so
walk in Him?
It could be Philippians 3.16. Oh, what
fruit did you now receive?
That's Romans 6.
It was something that kind of has to
do with the things we did in the
past.
Right.
Yeah, it's the Philippians text.
Philippians 3.16, the way it reads, I
don't think the ESV necessarily brings it out
the best.
Let me find it here.
Philippians 3.
It's basically, in the ESV it reads this
way, only let us hold true to what
we have attained.
The New King James Version says this, to
the degree that we have already obtained, let
us walk by the same rule, let us
mine the same thing.
To the degree that we have already obtained,
let us walk by the same rule, let
us mine the same thing.
I like that.
The Old King James has it as well.
But that New King James rendering, to the
degree you have obtained, to the degree that
you have risen to where you are, to
the degree that you have gotten to the
place ever since you were saved up until
now, mine the same thing.
The way that you've grown, the way that
you've made progress, give yourself to the same
thing.
Mine the same things.
I like that.
And the reason I've referred to it is
because looking in the past at my life,
typically there have been certain things that have
been true in the times that...
There have been certain things that I really
feel like have fed my Christian life as
much as anything.
And I think I've said before, in my
own life, I find that a real consistent
prayer life, a real consistent, rich time in
the Word, and also immersing myself in the
life of others who have run well, especially
missionaries, and then at the same time, always
trying to keep some amount of evangelism active
in my life.
I've found that those four things in my
own life have been extremely important.
Well, it's late.
Father, I pray that...
Lord, what I pray is that those that
are here, those that are listening, Lord, we
want a testimony.
And we want to get to the end
of our lives.
And when all the people of God are
gathered together, we want to be able to
tell a story that resounds with Your grace
and goodness in our life, Your power.
Lord, we want us a testimony.
We want a good testimony of Your saving
grace and that goodness and mercy following us
all the days of our life.
We want a testimony of the power, resurrection
power at work in our lives.
Lord, empower us.
We want a testimony of lives filled with
the Spirit.
We want a testimony of our God, powerful
in our lives, reality in our lives.
Lord, we want You to make a difference.
You do make a difference between Your people
and the rest, we pray.
Make a profound difference.
Just like there was light in Goshen and
it was dark among the Egyptians, so make
it be light among us, though it be
dark everywhere else.
And we pray that this light would be
profound and visible and that it would give
us all a story to tell all through
eternity of Your grace and goodness to us.
How You saved us.
How You brought us through.
How through all the temptations of the devil
and the drawings of the world, the difficulties
and the confoundings of the flesh that You
brought us through victorious.
You talk about not letting anybody steal our
crowns.
Through all the crown stealers, You prevented ours
from being stolen.
You allowed them to stay upon our heads.
You allowed us to reach the end, having
fought the good fight of faith.
Lord, help us fight, in doing all to
stand in the evil day when all hell
comes against us.