The Christian Research Institute presents the Bible Answer
Man, the nationwide radio broadcast that examines today's
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Just two weeks ago, the cover of Time
Magazine read, Scientology, Cult of Greed.
Now when a secular periodical like Time Magazine
exposes a cult like Scientology, you can be
rest assured that you're dealing with a monster.
And we know that the issue has sparked
some interest, so to answer your questions today
and give us a Christian perspective on this
dangerous religion are two of its former members
who may be familiar to some of you,
and who will be discussing Scientology with Hank
Hanegraaff, President of CRI.
Thank you, Mike.
You know, whenever I think of the cult
of Scientology, I think of what Paul says
in the book of Acts.
He's bidding farewell to the Ephesian elders, and
he says, and now compelled by the spirit,
I'm going to Jerusalem, not knowing what will
happen to me there.
I only know that in every city, the
Holy Spirit warns me that prison and hardships
are facing me.
Then he says, however, I consider my life
worth nothing to me, if only I may
finish the race and complete the task the
Lord Jesus has given me, the task of
testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
The very first thing that he's pointing out
is that there are dangers involved in being
an ambassador for the Lord Jesus Christ.
And when you tackle Scientology, you have, as
Mike has correctly pointed out, tackled a monster.
Paul goes on to say, keep watch over
yourselves and all the flock of which the
Holy Spirit has made you overseers.
Be shepherds of the church of God, which
he bought with his own blood.
I know that after I leave, savage wolves
will come in among you and will not
spare the flock.
Even from your own number, men will arise
and distort the truth in order to draw
away disciples after them.
So be on your guard, he says.
Remember that for three years, I never stopped
warning each of you, night and day, with
tears.
You know, when I memorized that not long
ago, I thought of Scientology, and I thought
of that last word, tears, because that's a
perfect acrostic for the questions I want to
ask you with regards to Scientology, T-E
-A-R-S.
We're going to talk about thetans.
We're going to talk about engrams or the
e-meter.
We're going to talk about auditing, reincarnation, and
Scientology.
But before that, I want to welcome Keith
and Sean Scott back to the broadcast studios
of the Christian Research Institute.
Thank you, Hank.
It's good to be here.
Hank, we're always excited to come and share
with you.
I'm excited to have you here.
I listened to the broadcast we did so
many months ago, I guess about a year
ago, and it was exciting to be with
you then, and I know that as a
result of that Bible Answer Man broadcast, people's
lives were impacted.
As a matter of fact, I think you
were sharing with me a compelling testimony of
someone who was brought out of darkness into
the marvelous light of God's grace.
Hank, thanks to CRI, being here is a
beacon of light.
People call, they get information about Scientology, they
get our phone number, and we send them
some information.
I had a beautiful story recently where a
mother called us about her son who had
just gotten into Scientology.
She was very concerned.
He had given his life to the Lord
many years before, but had backslidden, and through
sending our information pack out, through her prayers,
not only did he give up his quest
for Scientology after he got accurate knowledge about
what was going to happen to him in
the cult, but we're happy to report that
after hearing a good testimony of a good
Christian friend, he accepted Christ just a few
days ago.
That is so exciting.
You know, I tell you, I delight in
having you here for so many reasons, not
the least of which is the fact that
you make me feel so comfortable.
Sean was nursing your newest addition in studio
just before the broadcast, and we had to
shuffle her out real quick so she wouldn't
cry over the air.
My wife does that all the time.
I've got five kids, so I'm used to
that kind of an environment, so I feel
comfortable with you here.
I'm glad.
And I really do appreciate the work that
you're doing as well.
It is a very worthwhile work, but there
are some incredible dangers associated with doing this
kind of work.
In fact, when you expose Scientology, you can
expect some threatening phone calls.
We've already gotten them, Hank, and I know
you've gotten some yourself for the work you've
done.
You just had one the other day.
Just the other day.
I don't need to go over it in
detail, but it was frightening, but we just
pray that Christ would continue to protect us,
and if he's led us down this path
to expose this cult, that he'll provide for
us in all ways.
You know, at a recent NRB, National Religious
Broadcasters, in the exhibit hall, Scientologists had booths
set up, and they were passing their wares
on to unsuspecting pastors, and I watched for
a little while, and the pastors were just
so excited about what was being shared.
They had no idea that this was Scientology,
and I remembered the words of Dr. Walter
Martin, who said, if you can't tell the
difference between the fleece of sheep and the
fur of wolves, you're going to lose your
spiritual arms, and this is exactly what was
happening right at the National Religious Broadcasters.
Hank, what were they there under the guise
of?
What was their name?
They were there under the guise of two
front groups, and that is one of the
dangers of Scientology.
How do you know whether you're dealing with
something that's worthwhile, or something that is a
front group to indoctrinate you in Scientology?
For example, Applied Scholastics sound dangerous to me,
or some of the other front groups, like
Narconon.
That's a great example.
You're going in to deal with the drug
problem, and you end up in perhaps a
worse problem.
A real good one that I've noticed is,
we have in the Christian realm, Christian Businessmen
of America, and they have a group called
Concerned Businessmen of America.
It's so close, and it sounds so righteous.
One could easily be confused and think they're
coming to a godly meeting, when they're in
fact not.
Hank, another one that's, I think it was
in a newspaper recently, is one of the
fastest growing companies in the United States is
Sterling Management Company, and they go in to
professionals, doctors, dentist offices, and try to show
them new management techniques to reduce stress and
save time, and everybody's interested in that, but
you're buying a Scientology program.
You know, interestingly enough, when you mentioned the
word stress, I just got an envelope that
came through the mail, and in great big
letters, red letters in fact, it said the
word stress, and I thought, well this is
perfect for me, because I'm under stress constantly,
and I opened it up, and there was
Scientology propaganda.
They're involved in a major mailing campaign, and
they really want to become a mainstream Dale
Carnegie type of a program, where people go
and assist something new to help themselves.
Millions of dollars is also invested in researching
what are America's buttons right now, and how
do you approach the average individual on whatever
the button is of the times, and they
push it, expecting that you'll reach out for
their information.
The button now is stress.
And when you're talking about millions of dollars,
they have millions of dollars to spend.
Absolutely.
I mean, we're talking about a cult that
is very well-founded.
And when we talk about it as a
cult, I think we can probably talk about
it in that regard from both a theological
and a sociological standpoint.
In a social standpoint, I think it's fair
to say that it fits the definition of
a group of people that are being controlled
in virtually every dimension of their lives by
the group or by the cult.
In a theological sense, in some ways, they
pretend that they are Christian, yet they deny
all of the essentials of the historic Christian
faith.
Interestingly enough, the book dedicated to L.
Ron Hubbard called Scientology, put out by the
Scientologists, has a caption, and it says, ìA
world religion emerges in the space age.î
And it goes on to dedicate itself to
L.
Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, whose unique
genius, it says, has united the realms of
spirit and natural science to enhance immeasurably the
life and the consciousness of our time, as
well as the ages and civilizations yet unborn.
So Scientology really is appealing to ìthe scientific
age,î isn't it?
I think it really reaches to those people
because those people also are usually high-income
earners, engineers, people who like to have things
analyzed and explainable.
And there is a formula and a step
-by-step procedure for everything in life if
you're in Scientology.
If you don't have enough friends, they have
a formula to follow.
If you want to achieve ultimate spiritual freedom,
they have another formula.
Indeed.
Well, I want to go back to my
acrostic tears because Scientology has definitely left tears
in many people's eyes who have participated, not
the least of which are your own eyes.
You have suffered as a result of being
involved with Scientology for many years, and now
God has brought you out of Scientology and
is using you to expose the error.
But tears, I think that is an appropriate
acrostic, and I want to go through each
one of the letters that make up the
word tears, T-E-A-R-S.
First of all, T, Thetans, T-H-E
-T-A-N-S.
What is that, and what's the significance from
the standpoint of Scientology?
Well Thetans are what we would call the
spirit.
They're the part of man, our actual essence,
and Scientology believes that when you've achieved spiritual
levels above clear, that you can just leave
your body and you as a Thetan can
just travel around, similar to astral projection.
You're not confined within your body any longer,
and you can just go and move around
at will.
They believe also that through their processes, you
can get to the place where you can
control your environment and control your universe, and
it's very much like godness, being in godhood,
once you've achieved their various levels.
Who would believe this stuff?
For example, at the cost of $17,000,
according to Time Magazine, and a couple of
months invested in terms of your time, you
can find out about Scientology's sacred scriptures, the
story about the galactic ruler Zeno, volcanic explosions
on earth, and the implantations of the spirits
or body Thetans.
This level also helps free you from the
effects of drugs taken in past lives.
Now, who's going to believe this kind of
stuff, and yet, this is the sort of
science fiction that you're taught in Scientology.
We've discovered that they partake in what is
known by counter-cult psychiatry and what not
in progressive truths, that when you first get
in, you are given the very palatable thoughts
and the very logical, solid-sounding ideas, and
it isn't until you become more and more
indoctrinated that you find out some of the
bizarre things, and by the time you find
out about the body clusters of Thetans and
stuff, you're so indoctrinated, you don't know whether
you're coming or going.
Scientology has really become mainstream in that they're
sponsors of the Goodwill Games, Ted Turner's Goodwill
Games, with Sony and Pepsi and so forth,
so they showcase themselves along with household names.
You have people like Tom Cruise, Kirstie Alley,
John Travolta, Sonny Bono, Chick Corea, and many
others, Priscilla Presley, yeah, would be another great
example.
They are touted as being Scientologists.
Do they really know what's going on, or
are their names just being used?
Well, there's a very different treatment given to
those who have the kind of financial comfort
that these people do.
They don't see the more difficult side that
a typical staff member would experience, and Scientology
does not want to lose the income that
these people have, so there is somewhat of
a different approach given to these kind of
guys.
Last time you were on the broadcast, you
talked about, Keith, I believe, being involved in
slave labor, actually.
For Scientology, John Travolta doesn't have to go
through that, right?
No, I don't think they're going to make
John Travolta get into a blue boiler suit
and not see his wife or family for
two years.
But they do do that to the average
run-of-the-mill Scientologist?
Well, if you join staff and you've committed
to work there for two and a half
years or five years...
And by the way, you do that because
normally you can't even pay for what you
hopefully will gain from Scientology, so you really
enlist, so to speak, and you give your
time in exchange for the sessions.
Right, for the sessions, but Hank, what really
happens is you work, they require so much
work from you while you're there, you don't
have any time to get the sessions that
you're supposedly working to get for free.
Indeed.
But back to the slave labor or the
RPF as it's known, a person I had
just talked to on the phone, I told
him about my testimony when he went down
to the Scientology Center, he said, do you
have an RPF?
He said that to one of the Scientologists
there, and they said, oh yes, and we
have an RPF's RPF.
So it's just ridiculous what people will sink
to, but Scientology does do that and they're
doing it right now.
Well, you know, it's really interesting when we
talk about Thetans, we think that the average
person who is rational and sentient would not
fall for this sort of thing, yet John
Travolta is quoted as saying, it, Scientology, just
contains the secrets of the universe.
That may be hard for people to handle
sometimes, really hearing that, but it's true.
Or Kirstie Alley says, it's not hocus pocus,
if you can erase your engrams, then you
can get better.
Now, E stands for engrams in my little
acrostic tears, so let's talk about engrams.
What are engrams?
Well, there's volumes written on engrams and what
they are, but from my experience, having been
audited and having audited other people, an engram
is nothing more than a moment of pain
and unconsciousness that you felt at some time
prior to where you are now.
And usually these engrams are in prior lives,
and that is what Scientology wants you to
remember.
You cannot get better in Scientology, the bulletins
say, if you do not remember past life
incidents.
Interestingly enough, while you were a child, you
first heard about these e-meters, and that
sounds fairly scientific.
What is it really?
Well, as a child, I heard about it
because my father was a Scientologist, and he
would audit us children, ask us to remember
past life things, and we thought my dad
was kind of wacky.
We loved him, but it was a strange
belief he had.
But the e-meter is very similar to
a lie detector.
It picks up the sweat on your skin,
and if a person is telling the truth
or not telling the truth, this varies in
the resistance.
There's an electrical current going through your body,
a small one, to measure this, and that
is how they feel like they can tell
if you're being honest with them, if you're
actually remembering a real incident that happened 10
million years ago.
Interesting.
You talk about your experience, and you mention
the word auditing, which is the A in
tears.
What's auditing all about?
Well, that's like the counselor-patient relationship that
psychologists might have or counselors.
The person who is trained to manage the
e-meter and to ask the provided questions
to the counselee is said to be auditing
that counselee.
They lead them through very fixed questions and
processes.
Each process has a projected outcome, and they
lead this counselee through that list of questions
until they get what they perceive to be
the fixed outcome.
But more on the auditing, Hank, is that
the longer I've been out, the more I
remember that this auditing was a form of
brainwashing.
A real quick example of an auditing session
would be an auditor standing there talking to
his pre-clear, a person who's not attained
clear yet, and he'd say, look at that
wall, and you'd say, okay, I'm looking at
it.
He'd say, walk over to that wall, and
you would walk over to it, then he'd
say, touch that wall.
You'd touch it, and then you'd turn around,
and you'd repeat the same thing over and
over for hours.
Now that I look back, that is a
form of breaking you down, brainwashing you into
going along with what, and you keep doing
that until you remember or think of something
good.
By the way, when you say clear, we're
talking about literally erasing the blackboard, not only
in terms of what's happened previously in this
life, but in past lives as well, which
brings me to the R in tears, reincarnation.
Tell me what reincarnation is all about.
According to the Scientologists, do they even like
to use that word?
No, they really don't.
They like to call it past lives, and
there's a lot of Shirley MacLaine things around
about people who have remembered past lives, things
that are on the television, so they sort
of play along with that and say, yes,
there are past lives, and they believe that
we haven't just lived once or twice before,
but we've had millions of lifetimes going back
trillions of years, and this is why man
is in such a terrible state right now,
because all these years have piled up, all
these bad things, and we need to get
rid of all those engrams.
Well, I'll tell you, we want to end
not with tear, but tears, so we've got
to come up with an S, and that's
Scientology.
When we mention the word Scientology, what does
that really mean?
How did L.
Ron Hubbard come up with the word Scientology,
and why is that so descriptive in the
age of scientific enlightenment of the reason people
get involved in the first place?
Well, Scientology, knowing how to know the scientific
aspect of life, that's what attracted me, quite
honestly.
Life is hard to handle sometimes, and it
would be nice to think that there was
a science to it.
There's sort of the illusion that what you've
learned in Christianity is okay, but it's sort
of for when you were in diapers in
kindergarten, but now that you're enlightened, you can
move up and progress into the scientific enlightenment
of Scientology.
Or even, you've tried that Christian stuff before,
did it help you out?
Well, not really.
Well, try this.
This will really give you something to hang
your hat on.
It's also, Ted, it's not being the only
way, but it is a workable way.
Once you get involved, though, you can't pursue
any other workable ways.
It has to be only this way, and
it appeals to people who want very clear,
concise answers for everything in life.
With a name like Scientology, it's a real
draw to that type of thinker.
I thought of this across the tears on
my way into work this morning, and I
just sprung this on you.
I know that our listening audience now has
a handle by which they can remember some
of the tenets of Scientology, so maybe vicariously
for the audience, if I go through each
one of those letters, I want to see
if you can remember.
What's the T stand for?
Thetans.
Oh, very good.
And the E?
E-meter and Ingrams.
Oh, very good.
You've got both of them.
The A stands for?
The Auditing, which is nothing more than a
glorified counseling session.
And the R?
Reincarnation.
And S?
Scientology.
Well, you did good.
Now, you got a couple of them.
Keith didn't get.
He was looking there sort of with a
blank stare.
I hope all of you out there have
gotten this as well.
I had an Ingram.
I couldn't think.
Okay, great.
I'm going to read a quick letter.
I pulled your address from the Christian Herald
Magazine.
I'm a lifelong Catholic and former Scientology, looking
to make a break from my past and
to find some answers to questions that I
have of my faith and future life.
I'd appreciate any information you may have to
organizations and or support groups that are available
for someone like myself.
Thank you.
So here's a person who was involved in
Scientology, who was looking for a support group,
who was helped as a result of information
that we supplied and as a result of
that has come out of Scientology.
Praise the Lord.
That's really the bottom line, isn't it?
That's why we do what we're doing.
It's not necessarily to cast aspersions on other
people.
It's not simply to be against something, but
it's bringing people out of darkness into the
marvelous light of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I so appreciate the work that you both
are doing.
I know that you have put your lives
on the line, the lives of your family
on the line in taking the sorts of
stands that you are taking.
And in the second half of the broadcast,
I want our audience across the United States
and Canada to have an opportunity to ask
you questions personally.
Even if you're a Scientologist and you don't
agree with what we're saying, we would invite
you to call in and we're looking forward
to talking to you.
Mike, every time we've had Keith and Sean
Scott in studio, it's been an exciting experience.
That's right.
And as you mentioned, we'll be taking open
calls during the second half of the broadcast.
Our toll-free numbers are 1-800-821
-4490.
Again in the United States, that's 1-800
-821-4490.
In Canada, dial toll-free 1-800-541
-9437.
Also, if you'd like to write us, remember
our address, CRI, Post Office Box 500, San
Juan Capistrano, California, 92693.
We're coming up to a station break.
For those of you staying with us, we'll
be right back with the second half of
the Bible Answer Man program.
Welcome back to the second half of today's
Bible Answer Man program, presented by the Christian
Research Institute, the world's oldest and largest evangelical
counter-cult ministry.
It is our prayer that God will continue
to use this broadcast as a means of
speaking the truth and love about the errors
of spiritual counterfeits and non-Christian cults, along
with the many other outreaches of CRI, like
our newsletter, the Christian Research Journal and International
Division.
We continue to assist Christians in upholding the
mandate of 1 Peter 3.15, which is
to sanctify Christ as Lord in our hearts,
always being ready to make a defense to
everyone who asks us, to give an account
for the hope that is in us, yet
with gentleness and reverence.
As Hank, our president, puts it, we as
believers not only need to know what we
believe, but why we believe it.
So, if you're in dialogue with a Juanes
Pentecostal, a Mooney or a Mormon, and you
need information on what they believe, write us
and request it.
If you don't yet have a copy of
our resource catalog, ask for that as well.
We'll be glad to send it to you
free of charge.
Our address is the Christian Research Institute, Box
500, San Juan Capistrano, California, 92693.
Let me give that to you one more
time, CRI, Box 500, San Juan Capistrano, California,
and our zip code is 92693.
For those of you who have just joined
us, we are joined in studio by Keith
and Sean Scott.
They are being interviewed by Hank today, and
in a few moments, we'll be taking your
phone calls, answering questions on the subject of
Scientology.
Hank?
Mike, in part, Time Magazine provided an answer
to the question why so many, even well
-educated professionals can be deceived by such an
outrageous system of beliefs as Scientology, but I
got a letter the other day which I
think tells the story with far more eloquence.
It says, maybe I should have known all
along that the story about Jesus was true,
but somehow I just didn't get it.
The whole thing seemed mythological to me, a
tale spun by humans to get other humans
to live a more moral life, helpful in
an innocuous sort of way, but nothing to
get excited about.
Then in my late thirties, I bottomed out.
Disappointed and wounded, I determined to find the
answer to life or else to kill myself.
I began a spiritual search that took me
from Scientology to Silva Mind Control.
Nothing I tried satisfied.
In Silva, I was introduced to spirit guides,
and in Scientology, I was introduced to tap
the power within myself.
However, regardless of what I tried, the emptiness
never went away until one day I was
stopped on the street by a witness for
Christ.
I was invited to a Bible study, and
I discovered the evidence for the historicity of
the Bible.
I remember that night thinking, dear God, it's
true.
The Sunday school story is really true.
I saw the truth intellectually before I ever
saw it emotionally.
The evidence is there for anyone who will
hear.
And I suppose if anything sums up why
we're doing the program or broadcast today, it
would be letters like these.
And for that reason, at the top of
the second half hour of the broadcast, I
want to ask you for some witnessing tips.
How do you communicate with the Scientologist?
What is the best way to reach them?
Is it to dump a lot of information
on them, or are there some things that
you have to do prior to presenting the
gospel, such as building a relationship, for example?
That's a good one, Hank.
I'll give you a couple, and Sean, I'm
sure, has a few to add.
But the first thing, if you have a
friend, associate, or someone you know who's starting
to get into it, don't wait.
That is the prime time to talk to
them about Scientology, because it's, in my belief,
a long series of brainwashing, changing your thought
from one to another.
So the longer they're in, it becomes very,
very difficult to get out, even though it's
an answer to prayer.
I was in five years and totally brainwashed.
It's a miracle to the Lord that I'm
here right now of his faithfulness.
Hank mentioned friendship evangelism.
If Christ puts on your heart to witness
to someone, become his friend.
Don't just try to say a few things
and run away.
Care about this person, love him, which we're
instructed to do in the Scriptures, and become
a person that he can confide in.
Find out how long he's been in Scientology,
if he's been in for a year, two
years, three years, and try to draw him
into a conversation about what he believes, and
then you should be able and prepared, like
the Scripture says, to share the reasons for
the hope that lies within you.
In this type of communication, open, friendly, without
becoming antagonistic to one another, when they start
examining their thoughts and beliefs, we think that's
the road where some truth might get in.
I just would add that it's real important
not to be combative or judgmental to what
their belief system is.
If you can do, as Keith said, ask
questions and say, I read this and this
about your beliefs.
That's interesting.
My beliefs are this way, and how do
you relate the two?
And seem as though you're interested just from
a curious viewpoint, rather than wanting to convert
the other person.
Also, one of the best things, and the
foremost thing, is to be in prayer about
that person's soul.
You can't endeavor in one of these things
without having a spiritual covering of prayer.
Amen.
Well, I know I have so many questions
I wish I could ask you right now,
but time is slipping away on us, so
I'm going to go to the phone lines
and talk to Vivian in Glendale, California.
She's listening on KKLA.
Vivian, you're on the air.
Yes.
Hi, Hank.
Hi.
Hi, Vivian.
This is Keith.
I came across your program quite accidentally here,
and I heard you had a former Scientologist
on.
I am a Scientologist, and I have been
one for 14 years.
I'm a mature lady.
I have grown children.
In fact, it was my daughter that introduced
me to Scientology.
As a young mother, I knew that, and
I was always a very religious person, and
still am, and I always knew there was
more to life than I was seeing.
I was becoming kind of down, because life
wasn't exactly, you know, as you get older
you see the hopes and the dreams that
you have aren't really culminating, so it kind
of makes you go downhill.
So, when my daughter introduced me to Scientology,
I saw that there are a lot of
answers here that I was looking for, and
through Scientology, I have been able to refurbish
my education by taking a study course.
I always was a decent student in school,
but I found out why I wasn't a
better student, and I went back and refurbished
that.
Now I can study and read and really
get something out of the books I read.
Okay, Vivian, here's a good example of someone
who's gotten into Scientology.
Her name is Vivian, she's on the air,
and she's saying that Scientology has really filled
the vacuum or the void in her life,
which we say only Jesus Christ can fill.
How would you respond to Vivian?
Well, Vivian, I was curious.
You said that you were religious, or felt
that you were, and actually still consider you
religious.
Does that mean that you believe in Christ?
Well, I believe that Christ was a very
special person, yes, I certainly do, and I
believe he lived and did all the things
that we say he did.
You know, in Scientology, it's up to us
to determine what is true for us, and
we certainly believe in a supreme being.
So, you know, I'm just a little sorry,
Hank, that you don't have someone on the
program at the same time you have these
other people, because it's kind of like a
kangaroo court.
Well, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait
a minute.
Vivian, you're on the air, and we're not
about to cut you off, but hang on
for just a second.
You're doing a wonderful job representing Scientology.
You talk about Jesus Christ, and how Scientology
views Jesus Christ.
Keith and Sean, you don't happen to agree
with this opinion.
Hank, I'm not an official authority on that.
Oh, I understand that, Vivian.
I don't have an opinion.
Right, I understand that, no problem.
Vivian, we're not authorities either, we're just sharing
our experiences, what we learned over our five
years, too.
But what do you think about Christ?
Is he the savior of man, or is
he just a great person, philosopher?
Frankly, I've always thought he was a very
great person.
You believe that he was God?
Well, probably, yeah.
You know, the thing is, there is a
supreme being out there, and there's a lot
of greatness in all of us, and he
certainly was an outstanding one.
But do you believe that he was God,
the supreme being?
I really would really not want to say,
because that's a very personal thing to me.
Well, you know, ultimately, that's what Jesus Christ
says the acid test is.
Who do you say that I am?
That's your view, sir.
No, no, that's not my view.
That's what Jesus Christ said.
As a matter of fact, Jesus Christ over
and over again said that I and the
Father am one.
If you've seen me, you've seen the Father.
No one comes to the Father but by
me.
He either had to be crazy, on the
level of someone who calls himself a poached
egg, or he had to be, in fact,
God.
But you can't say he's a good teacher
when he says that sort of thing.
If that's true to you, then it is
true.
Vivian, I was curious, because I learned some
things about how Scientology felt about Christ after
I got out, which were offending to me,
but I wonder if you got to a
level, and I don't know what level you're
at now, but you found out that Christ,
instead of being a great person, was the
cause of all the ills that are afflicting
mankind right now.
Would that offend you?
You know, I don't recall reading anything about
Christ at all.
What level are you at right now, Vivian?
I'm a clear.
On an auditing level?
I'm a clear.
Are you an auditor also?
No, I'm not.
Okay, I would suggest and encourage you to
ask questions because...
Who am I talking to right now?
This is Keith, I'm sorry.
Ask your friends higher up, what does Ron
Hubbard say about Jesus?
You know, the one thing, I don't have
to do that, because I have seen enough
in Scientology where I've seen it work.
I have a lot of young friends from
the 60s and the 70s that are off
of drugs because of that.
And so really, it's handling a lot in
life.
There's a lot more to life, and right
now what I'm doing is I'm able to
handle myself better on this planet right now.
I'm a very ethical person, and Scientologists have
to be ethical for it to work, to
really work.
So that's what I'm addressing right now, and
by your telling people not to get into
Scientology, you're doing this civilization a great deal
of harm, because it does make better ethical
people.
I'm giving them the value of our experiences,
what we experienced while we were there.
Vivian, interestingly enough, Time Magazine in its recent...
Beg your pardon?
I have not seen the article.
Well, I was just going to tell you
about it.
It's entitled, Scientology, the Cult of Greed.
I just want to remind you, they killed
Christ on the cross.
Now, what do you think about that?
Do you think Time Magazine would say anything
good about anything?
If they killed Jesus Christ on the cross,
what can we expect of others on this
planet?
Well, Vivian, that is a rather unusual analogy,
and let me say that I rarely find
myself agreeing with Time Magazine, but I think
they've done an outstanding job in this article.
Because that's what you choose to believe.
Well, see, Vivian, I appreciate and respect your
opinion, but let me say this, that truth
is not subjective.
Truth is objective.
And unfortunately, so many people involved in Scientology
believe that you can have your truth, and
I can have my truth, never mind the
fact that the two truths conflict.
Now, that is not rational and sentient in
an age of scientific enlightenment.
Would you say, Sean?
No, and also, by the same token, if
my truth happens to be that I think
I have the right to kill people because
I think I'm special in some way, what
makes my truth any less important than your
truth?
Who really decides what real truth is, and
whose truth has a right to exist, and
whose truth doesn't?
In fact, Vivian, why don't you listen with
an open mind to what Sean has to
say about what you can learn in Scientology
about who Christ really is.
There's sanity, and there's insanity.
Well, we'll show you some insanity.
Hang on for just a second.
Go ahead.
We're in touch with a fellow who was
audited by an individual who has helped convince
him that he was the biological father of
Jesus Christ, and that the Virgin Mary was
not really a virgin, that she was impregnated
by accident through some scam, and because of
the horrendous, we call it sin, you would
call it overt, act of him having fathered
the person of Jesus Christ, he has to
make up to the church over $1,750
,000 to be used for different things.
That's an actual person who's been harmed by
what you consider a great religion.
Pardon me?
I said I wouldn't comment about that, because
I don't know anything about that.
Well, you wouldn't know anything about that because
you're not allowed to look at anything that
is negative against Scientology, are you?
I'm sorry?
You wouldn't know anything about that because you're
not allowed to read or listen to anything
that's negative about Scientology.
You would call that in theta, and you
are instructed to not look at the Time
Magazine article, the book by Paulette Cooper who
was victimized by Scientology.
I have a Bible in my home.
I have all kinds of books in my
home.
I have a book about Buddha.
That may be, but is it a fact
that you are not allowed to read anything
that is negative about Scientology?
May I remind you that this is the
United States and not Nazi Germany?
Well, that's one place that we can absolutely,
100% agree with you.
This is the United States, and you have
the right to be a Scientologist, but I
also have the right to warn millions of
listeners that Scientology is devastating, and it is
cruel in the extreme for me to know
what I know about Scientology, and for Keith
and Sean to know what they know, and
yet not say a thing, because people are
being damaged.
And you are demonstrating, Vivian, that you are
not open-minded, but your mind is completely
closed.
You do not want to look at anything
objectively.
You want to say what you want to
say, but you're not willing to reason.
This is your show, and it is a
one-sided show, so I guess I don't...
Well, I tell you what, you've had a
lot of time on this show, and we
appreciate you calling today, and if you want
to talk to us reasonably at any point
in time, I've got all the time in
the world for you, and so do Keith
and Sean.
Beg your pardon?
In other words, if I agree with you,
I can call back.
Not at all.
In fact, you can disagree with me all
day long, but if you want to reason
and talk about truth objectively and with an
open mind, I've got all the time in
the world for you.
God bless.
See you, Vivian.
All right.
Thank you.
Okay.
I appreciate you calling.
Keith and Sean, this to me is a
great case study.
Here we have someone that we're trying to
speak with objectively, and you talk oftentimes, as
I've communicated with you, about the brainwashing that
takes place in Scientology.
You even learn to use a whole new
vocabulary.
I think it would be important for you
to elaborate on that.
Well, some of the techniques that we have
discovered are pertinent to the process of brainwashing,
is you isolate the individual from that which
is familiar, from his friends and family who
are not part of the group.
You work that person, keep them so busy,
so tired, that they don't have the time
or the energy to thoughtfully question what they're
reading.
The language becomes very, very unique to the
group, and you get to the place where
you cannot communicate sensibly with a non-believer
of that cult.
You try to talk with your mother, father,
or someone who's not in it, and you
can't even find the words to describe what
you're saying, because they're not in the normal
language.
They're some concoction that Alan Hubbard's come up
with.
And something that's really near and dear to
my heart, Hank, is here's a woman, Vivian,
who's called.
She's got a Bible in her home, she
considers herself religious, and here she's throwing herself
behind Scientology, and at the higher levels, gang,
Scientology hates Christ.
They hate what he stands for, they hate
everything about it, and they do not believe
that the Bible is even an accurate historical
document.
So we have misinformation out there.
And I really pray that Vivian would get
the scales off her eyes and read the
scriptures that she has right there in her
house.
Also, initially, when one is pursuing interest in
Scientology, they are told it's okay to have
an open mind.
If you want to be a Christian or
Jewish or whatever, that's fine, it's compatible.
But once you're in, and you're considered to
be one of the flock, if you are
considered open mind, that's actually a label that
you are given, and you can be put
through various ethical demotive processes and punishments because
you are, quote, open minded.
You know, I was on a NBC radio
affiliate secular talk show talking about Scientology recently,
and a number of Scientologists called in, and
quite frankly, and I'm just being gut level
honest with you here, a chill ran through
me, because I have seen firsthand what they
do to those who dare oppose them.
For example, someone who I consider reputable, as
far as I know, although I don't have
all the details, was framed and exposed, quote,
unquote, by Scientology as a pedophile.
And so they've dispensed with this person, they
have completely destroyed this person's character, so there
is a price to pay to take on
Scientology.
Some of you who are listening to me
right now know that we have the courage
to take on cults, and even within the
body of Christ we get insults, but it's
one thing to hear a Paul Crouch refer
to the heresy hunters and shout something like,
God's going to shoot you if I don't,
or to hear Benny Hinn tell a nationwide
TV audience that he'd like to blast us
with his Holy Ghost machine gun.
I don't take threats like that too seriously,
although sometimes I worry about some of their
more unstable followers, but it's quite another thing
to consider the mafia-like tactics used by
cults, like Scientology, to deal with their enemies.
For example, Time Magazine says this, those who
criticize Scientology often find themselves engulfed in litigation,
stalked by private eyes, framed for fictional crimes,
and beaten up or threatened with death.
Now, is that overstating the case?
No, I was going to ask Vivian, she
said, I live an ethical life, and a
lot of Scientologists would say, yes, I'm very
ethical, and they're ethical as long as they're
doing things that help their causes.
What they did to Paulette Cooper was a
crime, and it wasn't found out until the
FBI literally beat the doors down with sledgehammers,
took their files, and proved that they had
totally set up Paulette Cooper.
What kind of an organization is this that
even dares to take on the government of
the United States?
How powerful are they?
Powerful, well-backed financially, and very paranoid.
Paranoid?
Organizations take on the characteristics of their leadership.
Is this true?
That's right.
Was L.
Ron Hubbard paranoid?
Absolutely.
Well, we know many people who worked with
L.
Ron Hubbard personally.
He's a recluse.
I never saw him, and I was in
for five years.
I was at FLAG.
I never saw him, and very few people
did.
However, the people that did work with him
said that he had people tasting his food
all the time to make sure he wasn't
poisoned.
He was insane about cleanliness.
He had people vacuum the carpeting seven times
to make sure there was no dust.
His clothing had to be washed over and
over in some special solution before he would
wear it.
There are just numerous stories.
I want to now go back to our
phone lines and talk to John in Pasadena,
California.
John, you're on the broadcast.
Yes, good afternoon.
Good afternoon.
I would like to gain some clarification on
some of the lesser-known doctrines, I might
say official doctrines of Scientology regarding, and I
hope I have the name correct, a leader,
Xenu, that I believe was on planet Earth
so many millions of years ago.
Can you give me some background information on
that?
What is the source of your documentation?
The leader is called Xenu, X-E-N
-U.
As I said earlier, I was in Scientology
for five years and read quite a bit
and listened to many tapes, but I cannot
recall the exact place where we heard the
story about Xenu.
But if you look up your LA Times
articles, it was written in there.
But from what we gather, he was the
creator of all evil in the world.
He victimized all of us who were on
planet Earth by sending us down into volcanoes
and dropping atomic bombs on our heads.
I'm being serious when I say that.
I know it sounds ludicrous, but that's what
it is.
And then this person...
...put us in there?
Could you repeat that?
You said he put us in volcanoes, meaning
us in our previous lives?
Yes, as Thetans.
We were debilitated by being put in these
volcanoes with atomic bombs dropped on our heads
and we were cursed to live a life
of never knowing that we'd lived before.
And Iran talks a lot about Xenu.
And didn't...
Is the basis of the negative engrams tied
to the beings, us I guess, that were
trapped in the volcanoes?
They escaped and then they put on negative
engrams on people today.
Is that a correct perception on my part?
Well, I'm not sure.
I know that the whole incident would be
a negative engram.
I think that the higher auditing levels like
OT-3 and OT-3X, you actually remember
supposedly this incident that happened to you.
But I can't say authoritatively because I never
achieved that auditing level.
And I think right now, Hank, I'm kind
of glad I didn't.
Well, did they escape and now they bombard
people with their engrams or influence?
Oh, you mean the Thetans that are in
this volcano thing?
From what I understand, that's us today.
We all had that happen to us.
This sounds a little like science fiction.
And I think that's a fairly important point
to make.
L.
Ron Hubbard was quite a good writer, I
guess, of science fiction, if you want to
consider this good writing.
Very intriguing writer.
Very convincing too, John.
I know you read this stuff and you
try to make sense of it.
But he was very, very eloquent.
I hope that answers your question, John.
Are you calling because you were a Scientologist?
I'm a Christian.
I do teaching and writing on cults and
the occult.
I haven't made a detailed study of Scientology,
at least not yet.
And I've heard about this, that somehow there
was an escape, if I'm not remembering incorrectly,
from the volcanoes of these beings.
And aren't they the basis of our bombardment?
Ingram bombardment?
Can't speak to that, John.
Just don't know.
Yeah.
I don't like to repeat things that are
inaccurate, so I wanted to try to gain
clarification on that.
Well, if you stay on the line, we
can send you all the clarification you need.
I need to move along.
I appreciate your call, John.
We're running out of time.
We're coming to the end of the program.
I want to quickly mention that we're going
to be on the air for a second
hour, so please stay on the line.
We'll continue to answer your questions off air,
and we'll broadcast that at a later date.
Keith and Sean, I have enjoyed being with
you, and I'm looking forward to being with
you for one more hour on the Bible
Answer Man broadcast.
So are we, Hank.
Thank you.
Well, we hope we've answered your questions on
Scientology, this dangerous cult, starred by L.
Ron Hubbard.
And of course, if you have any more
questions about Scientology, as Hank mentioned, we'll continue
to take your calls off the air for
another hour.
Also, you may write us at Box 500,
San Juan Capistrano, California, and our zip code
is 92693.
Thank you for joining us today, and be
sure and join us again on the next
Bible Answer Man program.
I'm Mike Stevens, and on behalf of President
Hank Hanegraaff and the entire CRI staff, we
thank you for joining us today.
Via satellite from Southern California, the Christian Research
Institute presents the Bible Answer Man, the nationwide
radio broadcast that examines today's religious movements and
gives reasons for faith.
For decades, this program has been giving believers
and non-believers alike solid defenses and biblically
-based answers about the Christian faith.
We've also been using it as a beacon
of warning about the counterfeit Christs, false prophets,
and destructive heresies that the Bible mentions.
And so it is with all of the
outreaches of the Christian Research Institute, whether by
radio broadcast, cassette tape, or printed material, we
offer information on cults, world religions, heretical teachings,
and other spiritual counterfeits, so that we in
the body of Christ may be more aware
of them and be more effective in reaching
their members with the true gospel.
If you'd like a copy of our resource
catalog, which lists all of the primary materials
we have to offer, just write us and
ask for it.
We'll send it to you free of charge.
Here's our address, the Christian Research Institute, or
CRI, Post Office Box 500, San Juan Capistrano,
California, 92693.
Yesterday we had the opportunity of being joined
in studio by Keith and Sean Scott, two
former Scientologists, providing insight into this dangerous non
-Christian cult, especially in light of the recent
Time Magazine cover story.
We'll take more of your calls as they
are with us in studio today, discussing Scientology
with Hank Hanegraaff.
That's right, Mike.
In fact, it's not often that we have
someone on for two shows in a row,
but I think this is a show which
is very important.
There's information that is indispensable for people across
the United States and Canada, that Keith and
Sean Scott can give from the perspective of
being inside of Scientology.
I reminded our studio audience yesterday that Paul
said that savage wolves would come in among
the flock, they wouldn't spare the flock, and
he told us to be on our guard.
He said, remember that for three years I
never stopped warning each of you night and
day with tears.
That reminded me of how I could use
the word tears as an acrostic for remembering
some of the problems with Scientology.
We said that T stands for Thetans, the
E, engrams, and the E-meter, the A,
auditing, R, reincarnation, and S, Scientology.
If you didn't get that, you'll have to
get yesterday's tape because I don't have time
to go over it right now.
We're going to take a lot of calls
from our listeners.
Before we get to that, I want to
welcome Keith and Sean back to our broadcast
studios.
Hi, Hank.
It's good to be back again with you.
Thanks.
Listen, you guys have been a blessing to
so many people, and yet, how did you
really get nurtured in the Christian faith?
What happened to you after you got out
of Scientology?
Well, after you get out of a cult,
Hank, you really feel spiritually raped.
My reaction was to become hard inside in
my heart, and I didn't want to accept
anything.
I was just going to be my own
man.
I was not going to listen to any
doctrine of anything above all the Bible that
was on my list.
Sean, on the other hand, where she was
working, a person started witnessing to her, answering
questions that Sean had, and she came home
and started reading the Bible.
I said, Sean, that's the worst cult of
everything.
The whole world is screwed up because of
the Bible.
She said, I know you feel that way,
but I just want to read it and
learn for myself.
She started reading it.
I saw a change in her, Hank, that
was just unbelievable.
After all the experience of Scientology, she started
becoming more of a person, relating to the
family better, and just peace and joy.
I saw her experience that.
I said, Hey, I've got to read what
you're reading, too.
I think I read Romans.
I couldn't believe what happened to me after
I read Romans.
It just pierced my heart.
I saw what Christ had done for us,
what he wanted for us, as Paul was
explaining.
I just said, God, I need that.
I've got to have that in my life.
That's how we became saved.
Even after we became saved, we wanted to
learn more.
Sean, at work, also had some Mormons at
work, and they were very anxious to share
with us their Christian faith.
We said, Are you Christians?
They said, Sure.
We sat through four lessons with some elders
from the Mormon church until we sort of
realized, Hey, this sounds like a cult of
some sort.
Sean got a book, researched it a little
bit, and said, This is a cult.
Then a friend of mine at work was
in Jehovah's Witness.
He was going to offer me a Bible
study.
I met with him three or four times.
Even though we had accepted Christ, we were
being bombarded with false doctrine everywhere we turned.
We were just crying out, Where can we
learn what this Bible has for us?
I know we should read it, but we
wanted to have fellowship, too, with Christians.
So, you were immediately bombarded with people who
said they had more truth for you, but
the real thing you needed to do was
get into the Word of God, not let
someone else tell you what the Word said,
but you had to read it for yourself
and discern the difference between truth and error.
One thing, one verse that became a real
cornerstone for me in my search for a
Christian church to attend is in Colossians, chapter
2, verse 8, 9, and 10, where it
says, See to it that no one takes
you captive through philosophy and empty deception according
to the tradition of men, according to the
elementary principles of the world, rather than according
to Christ.
For in him all the fullness of deity
dwells in bodily form, and in him you
have been made complete, and he is the
head over all rule and authority.
When we'd be approached by the Mormons that
I used to work with and the Jehovah's
Witness Keith worked with, the real key thing
was that it had to have more than
Christ.
There was always an additive or a takeaway
from this very verse that in Christ you
have it all.
So we thought, well, to be safe, we'll
watch TBN.
We'll watch Channel 40 because that is a
Christian TV program.
Hank, when I first started listening to it,
I learned a lot of good things and
I was just sort of accepting everything, but
after a few months I noticed I was
getting depressed and I didn't feel good at
all.
I was getting confused and I went and
talked to my pastor.
I said, I'm listening to Channel 40 and
I'm starting to be confused about who Jesus
is or sin and everything.
And she said, stop watching Channel 40 right
now because there will be something good and
then right behind it there will be something
error, a wrong teaching.
And when you're young you can't discern it.
So in a sense that was doing more
damage than the other things or at least
as much because we were being led off
into prosperity doctrine.
Also we were being offended by the constant
pleas for money.
We understand that a workman is worth his
wages, but these people were teaching that you
will achieve all your goals and be prosperous
only if you send into their ministry and
you must send into their ministry.
It was like that became their doctrine.
Well we have done shows on the Trinity
Broadcasting Network.
Obviously you haven't heard them, but we would
share your views with regards to that.
And so many people when we speak out
against Mormonism or the Jehovah's Witnesses will applaud
us.
When we speak out against some of the
things which are taught on the Trinity Broadcasting
Network like Jesus wore designer clothes, the apostles
were wealthy, giving to get, Adam in the
Garden of Eden was an exact duplicate of
God and on and on, ad nauseum, ad
infinitum.
This is something that needs to be spoken
out against.
One thing too that we noticed was so
much of the doctrine, especially the prosperity doctrine,
really correlates with what we were taught in
Scientology.
They had different words for it and a
different source of the creation of the idea,
but it was so similar that it just
smacked of untruth.
That's why I'm very thankful for CRI Hank
and I'll just tell you right to your
face that without this program and your organization
a lot of people would be walking in
darkness today and through your efforts people are
learning about who Jesus really is and then
enjoying the fullness of that.
Well I hope those of you who listen
to us and support us will recognize that
all of us need to get back to
the basics.
We need to know what we believe and
why we believe it.
We need to understand essential Christian doctrine and
we don't need to deviate on peripheral issues,
but on the essentials we cannot afford to
deviate because when we do, we're off into
the kingdom of the cults.
Well I know that there are so many
people like yesterday that want to talk directly
to you, so I'm going to go to
the phone lines and talk to Linda in
Anaheim, California on KKLA.
Linda, before you speak let me say that
I've got a speaking engagement about three hours
from here and I've got to get there
in two hours and forty-five minutes, so
I'm going to have to run, but I'm
going to leave this broadcast in the capable
hands of Mike Stevens.
Mike, I've appreciated your work and one of
the nice things is I know that I
can leave and the broadcast is in better
hands than when I was here.
Well now the pressure is on me so
I'm going to leave.
Linda, you're on the air.
Hi.
I just want to thank you guys for
all the work that you've been doing.
You've just been a really valuable asset and
especially this.
I have to tell you, thank your guests.
I have never gone as far as they
went in Scientology.
I was brought in through an ad in
the paper for a receptionist and so I
thought well you know this is a great
opportunity this sounds interesting so I went in
and had an interview and of course got
hired right on the spot.
Did you make any money?
No.
I didn't think so.
That was the one thing that got me
out of it because my husband at the
time kept going, well where's your paycheck?
And I go, well I'm not sure.
I'm not sure where my paycheck was going.
And what you said about how they bring
you in on gradual and at first it
seemed very acceptable, very scientific and very bright
and everything like that and I'm just fortunate
that the Lord always had his hand on
me and I remember first in the beginning
because I had some questions and I said
well I'm a Christian, is there any problem
with that?
And he said no we're not a religion.
And as I think back on that I'm
going yeah they're saying they're not a religion
but yet for tax purposes they say they're
a church.
Wait a minute, one of them has got
to be wrong, right?
That's right.
fortunately because of what had happened of them
not paying me on a continual basis and
my husband and I really needed money Rudy
just said I'm sorry honey you have to
quit and I mean I'm just glad I
did.
I'm glad that the Lord had his hand
on me and I'm a full-fledged Jesus
-loving Christian right now.
Praise God.
Linda you know I want to say additionally
besides the progressive truths that Scientology puts out
there's also the factor that once you get
in and you become involved to any degree
you can't really think about leaving without also
considering that you're going to give up all
of your Scientology friends and all of that
which has become familiar to you and that's
one of the reasons that some people don't
get out.
For me I stayed a lot longer than
I would have because I feared that I
would lose my husband, that I would lose
all my friends, the place where I was
living I would lose, the job that I
had, the time I would lose and a
lot of people don't want to make that
kind of a sacrifice.
Luckily and thankfully from God I didn't lose
my husband but I did lose everything else.
Well you know I mean what we lose
in the world you know God replaces.
Amen.
Yeah that's true.
Amen.
Thank you Linda for calling.
Thank you for your encouragement.
Thank you very much Linda.
Now I've got a question for you Keith
and Sean.
Now she was mentioning that she answered a
classified ad for a job.
Is that typical of the way Scientology works?
It didn't used to be when we were
involved they didn't used to run ads like
that but I think that is one of
their ways now to pull people in is
they offer different types of positions through any
local newspaper.
They don't say though that you don't have
to make any money.
It sounds like what I like to call
a backdoor technique.
They don't come out and tell you that
they are from the church of Scientology but
they use other tactics like that.
Well let's go to our next caller Karen
in Sacramento California listening on KFIA.
Karen you're on the air.
Hello.
Hi Karen.
I'm glad I got on.
My brother has been in Scientology and my
sister-in-law for about 15 or 18
years.
I have been really thinking about them a
lot lately and of course this article that
was out by Time magazine just with hair
raising but that made me think about whether
or not if I wrote to them or
called them would I be putting them in
any kind of trouble or danger.
Well are they on staff somewhere Karen?
Yes they are.
Where?
In the gold.
It's in L.A. In Hemet on Highway
89.
Oh.
Hmm.
I don't know I didn't know about that
organization there.
That's a pretty elite area that particular organization.
They all sleep you know in a dorm
or something.
Well they're very isolated but it's true.
Are you on good terms with them Karen
right now?
Well my brother and I we've never been
very close and the last about 4 or
5 years he hasn't even come home for
Christmas.
He used to come home for Christmas but
he's just not able to get off the
job.
Well Karen just as a way of trying
to help and it is so hard to
unbrainwash somebody who is brainwashed but try to
reestablish that family blood tie that you have.
I know you're praying for him continue that
but maybe as a goal try writing and
starting working up to the point of getting
him to come home for Christmas this year.
Say it's been so long let's get you
home and just pray that at that opportunity
you're calling from where Karen?
Sacramento.
Well you know maybe we could talk I
could talk to him on the phone when
he gets home for Christmas.
I mean I would be happy to do
that and off the air we can give
you a way of reaching us.
But maybe as a goal to say let's
get him home for Christmas this year.
Let's really get him back in touch with
the family because he's going through hell there.
He really is.
But he's so isolated what's he going to
do?
He's out in Hamlet and that's way out
in the middle of nowhere too.
So his whole life is wrapped up in
it and a friendly kind voice from you,
a letter full of love and an invitation
to come home that Christmas might really be
the ticket to start something happening along with
the prayers.
I did write him a couple of nice
long letters and sent pictures of his niece
and nephew and I started that.
It's been a couple months since I have
and he doesn't respond.
Yeah that's typical.
I don't even know if he gets the
letters sometimes.
He might not.
I always have suspected that there's times when
he didn't get them because they had him
first.
Well if the Lord's put him on your
heart, pursue him as best you can by
phoning, more letters and just the invitation because
if he can get out of the situation
there for a little while he might have
a chance to reevaluate where his life is
going and that might be a start.
With the letters I shouldn't mention anything about
like say the articles.
I wouldn't mention that while you're trying to
reestablish contact.
Okay.
Be really friendly and really excited to hear
about what he's doing and how he's doing.
Okay.
Thanks for calling Karen.
Thank you, Sean.
Thank you, Karen.
And now to our next caller, Mark, listening
on KELP in El Paso, Texas.
You're on the air.
Yeah.
Thanks, Mike.
I'd like to really thank Keith and Sean
for the work they're doing.
I used to be a minister in Scientology.
As a matter of fact, I was introduced
to Scientology in Portland, Oregon.
Yeah.
To help build the mission on Sutter Street
in San Francisco.
I was one of those guys that ran
around the streets passing out the free personality
test.
I did time doing that.
So it was you, huh?
I'd take them up in the office and
tell them how screwed up they were and
that they really needed some help and they
needed to take the communications course.
After that, I became a public recruitment secretary
and would try to get them to take
further courses, auditing, all this sort of thing.
I just praise God that I'm out of
it.
I'm just the author and finisher of my
faith.
He pulled me out of Scientology.
I just plead the blood of Jesus over
you, Keith, and you, Shawn.
Thank you.
No weapon formed against you shall prosper.
That's right.
Also, one thing I didn't see in Scientology
is I didn't see a lot of mercy,
being a staff member.
Amen to that.
I didn't see a lot of mercy or
compassion.
Mercy is pretty unheard of there.
What's that?
Mercy is pretty unheard of there.
Oh, yeah.
It's very ruthless and some of the techniques
they would use on people to get them
to get money, more money, money, money.
One of the things I see about Scientology
is that at that time before I got
out of it, which was around 10 or
11 years ago, it only went up to
this level of OT7.
Now they've got OT8 and I guess they're
going to unleash up to, who knows, OT90.
I don't know what they're going to do,
but it's constantly more and more and more
and more money.
That's right.
I didn't read the Time Magazine article about
17,000, but that's really a low estimate
because I've seen people spend 50,000 and
100,000 dollars on Scientology.
Oh, easily.
Mark, thanks for your call and your testimony.
I love the Lord and He is God.
I'd like to just say one thing.
I know you have some more calls coming
in, but it says that in Matthew 28,
18, it says, All authority in heaven and
on earth has been given to me.
It wasn't given to L.
Ron Hubbard or to Scientology.
That's right.
You know, Mark, one thing that I noticed
when I was trying to reach out to
Christ and receive what He had for me
was the idea of grace.
In Scientology, whatever you have happened to you,
good or bad, you've pulled it in, basically,
according to your behavior and your works.
And to be able to open my hand
to a free gift of God, the salvation
from His Son, it's just the hardest thing
to unlearn the idea that you have to
work for it, you have to earn it,
you have to put out the right vibes.
Postulates.
I wonder, did you have trouble with that?
No.
a little bit more information about Golden Era
Studios.
I heard from another caller that you weren't
too familiar with it.
However, I live in Hemet and I drive
by Golden Era Studios every day.
And they are opening a new golf course
soon.
They have open houses every Sunday from three
to five p.m. They're trying to bring
the community in on it.
And I was just wondering if you could
shed any light about Golden Era Studios.
Mark, it sounds like you know more about
it than I do.
It's just another one of their front groups
it sounds like.
But you know, Mark, it could really be
helpful.
God's put you there in that city.
To alert the city council and the mayor
of Hemet that hey, this is a group
that looks like something on the outside but
on the inside.
I know this group is a Scientologist.
Send them the Time Magazine article.
We can send you some information about it.
And maybe you could start a grassroots level
to say let's not embrace these guys.
Let's expose them for what they're really trying
to do.
Yeah.
Also, they have a large ship on their
yard or in their complex.
And of course, I see people in Navy
dress blues and dress whites depending on the
season.
And I was wondering if you could shed
some light on that.
Well, those people are C-Organization members.
Those are the staff members of Scientology that,
believe it or not, have signed a billion
-year contract to work for Scientology.
That's a B with a billion.
And they're trying to be very dedicated and
help further the cause of Scientology any way
they can.
We've been joined in studio today by two
former Scientologists, Keith and Sean Scott.
Many of you have also heard Keith and
Sean on Focus on the Family today sharing
many of the same thoughts that they shared
with us today.
Earlier, Hank was hosting the program and had
to head out, and now it looks as
though you also have to leave, Keith and
Sean, but thanks again for joining us.
We'll take more of your open calls during
the second half.
Joining us will be Ken Samples and Rob
Bowman.
Right now, we're coming up to a station
break.
For those of you staying with us, we'll
be right back with the second half of
today's Bible Answer Man program.
For
further
information on this subject, remember that the Christian
Research Institute offers a wide selection of books,
fact sheets, statements, CRI prospective transcripts and other
user-friendly resources that will help you to
become better equipped.
Just write CRI, Box 500, San Juan Capistrano,
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Or you may call 714-855-9926.