It's so important for you to be able
to share openly or ask openly anything that
is bothering you about OM, about OM India
or OM International, about maybe some of the
changes you hear about, some of the areas
where we're growing.
So who has the first question?
Anything.
Don't feel frightened to ask something that may
be negative because I could throw out so
many negative things and we want to deal
with those things while we're here, rather than
just go back to India, talking about it,
not really clear what the situation is.
Who has the courage to launch the first
question?
Yes, PM John.
Good question.
Question is, for those listening to the tape,
why we're not working in Andhra when it's
so responsive, many openings?
We discussed this at the trustees meetings and
of course I am one of the strongest
ones holding out against moving into new states.
It is my deep conviction, I think we
have fair unity on this, that we are
only scratching the surface in most of the
states we're working in.
There are enormous problems if we want to
get into in-depth real follow-up work
and really see disciples and ultimately churches.
Andhra is very responsive, that's 10 reasons why
OM shouldn't go there.
Because the Lord has called us as a
pioneer agency, first to reach the masses and
then to do what other people won't do.
There are so many groups working in Andhra,
I've traveled from one end of Andhra to
the other, I've ministered in a high percentage
of all the big buxing assemblies, the ship
has visited Andhra, of course there's church growth
in Andhra, but on the basis of that
thinking we wouldn't even be in India.
We would be back in other more responsive
areas to India.
People say to me, why is OM not
working in Korea?
So many are responding, we could be so
much bigger and then much money there.
Why aren't we working in Taiwan?
Why aren't we, you know, so many countries.
We can't do everything.
Another factor is we don't have any more
money, we are in debt, which is not
glorifying God and movement as a whole.
We have pulled India out of debt.
Why?
Because we scrape all the STL money, a
vast sum of money, which everybody in OM
would like to get their chunk, we give
almost all of it to India.
It's a little private arrangement that Jerry Davey
and I have because I brought into being
STL and Jerry Davey was there a few
years after that and we agreed that, you
know, we didn't want to just, how can
I say it, spread ourselves too thin, but
aim of one area.
Now for a while a lot of STL
money went into the ships, but as the
ships were so attractive and created so much
more giving, we felt we should go back
to the original vision that most STL money
goes to India.
But we are on the limit of finance.
We're also on the limit of manpower.
We tried to pull down from 400 to
300, I don't know how well we're doing.
Some research is going on actually right now
and BR is the first state to submit
their facts, exact numbers right now, just as
a photograph where OM is right now.
These paid workers, there's a crisis we're trying
to work out of, they have to be
included in those numbers.
They are all receiving salary.
So I don't think we have got down
to the 300 mark.
We have discovered that everybody in OM has
a certain amount of money to keep them
going.
Now if more money comes from India, that
will certainly help.
And after one or two years from now,
if we can get some breakthroughs in prayer,
finance from India, then we might be able
to think about some other states.
In fact we are discovering right now to
a large degree we are having to pull
back in West Bengal.
We have made a strong effort to help
Brother John Lee launch a new ministry in
West Bengal.
The original plan was that he would move
out of the town where we have our
base.
What's the name of that town?
Kharagpur.
I get it mixed up with Gorakhpur.
Kharagpur.
It starts with a K.
But John Lee doesn't feel he should leave.
So we are being advised by people in
West Bengal that it really is better not
to have these two entities in the same
town.
So we are moving Northeast India OM to
Bhubaneswar, which means we're going to increase our
thrust into Orissa, try to continue in West
Bengal, but it's not going to be as
big as it was.
We can't do everything.
We're so stretched.
I'd like to know what other movements in
India are committing as much manpower and as
much money to the task of reaching India.
Maybe you could send me a personal note
on that.
Because we are really in the OM worldwide
esteeming India as absolute top.
Why am I living out here now two
and a half months?
And we will grow, especially if we can
get that unity, how we can lay hold
a little more finance, and you can be
sure if some big special gifts come in
to OM for India, that can happen at
any time.
We're going to let you know.
We've been praying for that for the last
couple of years.
It's not happening.
And you know, even some of the foreigners
working in India, you always think these internationals,
you know, their pockets are just jingling.
Some of them have had difficulty in support.
Some have already left.
They've already left and are in secular jobs,
in operation survival.
The West is in economic difficulty.
There are some exceptions.
Another very important thing to understand in this
is OM is largely a European based world.
There are Americans.
We have some good friends in America, dear
old Everett Langlett.
But we, people like Everett Langlett, we can
count on a few hands giving regularly, medium
-sized sums.
But largely our prayer constituency is in Europe,
and many of the Europeans are finding a
struggle for their own finance.
Now here's another thing that's happened lately.
Giving that used to go to general fund
10 years ago, now seems to go to
individuals.
That's fine.
We resolve one problem, we create another problem.
Have you ever heard of robbing Peter to
pay Paul?
So Peter, he's broke, and Paul, he's got,
you know, more chapatis.
And we have discovered that in quite a
few countries, there are exceptions.
Germany is an exception.
People prefer to support an individual worker.
We have also been very generous with our
contacts.
Money that would go to places like OM
USA, now would go to someone else with
more publicity, KP100.
This happens.
Before God, we have never fought this.
We've never got in competition.
So many things have been born through OM.
And as those things have been born through
OM, the money that they have, you know,
contacts, friends they had when they were in
OM, some would be their own, some would
be ours.
As they leave, all the money, most of
it goes with them.
And of course, we have helped many individuals
get started on their prayer letter, their personal
support.
When they leave OM, that personal support goes
with them.
So we're dealing with a whole multiple of
factors.
And that's why we don't have the money
and the manpower, and they are linked together
to just open whole new states.
Now we've been very flexible.
Teams have gone into some of these places
for special efforts.
And you know, you have quite a bit
of freedom down there.
And we've also years ago, of course, tried
to contain Tamil Nadu, but you know, things
are happening in Tamil Nadu.
But we're not ready to start another whole
state.
Also, once you start something, it's very hard
to stop.
Other brothers, the very brothers PM that you
send in there, two years later, if they're
real Andhra people, they are not going to
want to be led from Bangalore, I can
assure you.
They will want their own office and their
own operation.
And the Telugu people are very good people.
I love the Telugu people, but you know,
and there are many different kinds of Telugu
people, but you don't find them at present,
sending many people outside of Andhra.
Andhra is a very happy little place.
Lots of food, lots of churches, lots of
growth, no need to go, especially the North.
Even Bakht Singh, I could not persuade to
send any Andhra people to the North.
There are a few exceptions, of course.
So then, you know, again, I could talk
a whole hour on this, because we are
interested in Andhra.
We have published books in Andhra, I've preached
all over Andhra, but you must get into
your minds very clearly, and I've seen it
here this week, OM India is at breaking
point.
There are enormous issues that must be dealt
with, and we must work out and then
see how we go, before we can just
add more, you know, all kinds of suggestions.
Some have come to me with suggestions, why
don't we close certain states?
Why don't we close Kerala?
How does that sound?
Augustine?
You'd probably say, amen, I'm going North.
You see, it's difficult, isn't it, to know,
but this is why we're praying and discussing
and want all these suggestions.
Another question.
Yes.
What are you doing here then?
Are you just a piece of paper?
You see, this is a follow-up.
Right here.
And the ongoing training all year round, and
the fact that all these groups are getting
their leaders from Operation Mobilization, some of them.
Where did Ebenezer Sundararaj, this man who leads
FNPP, get his, what, ten years or five
years, five years of training?
I think his wife was longer.
And you can go right across India.
So, you see, it's always these two things.
Admittedly, you can blame it on me.
I believe in reaching the masses.
And after examining some of the follow-up
work going on in India, I thank God
we've emphasized reaching the masses, as well as,
of course, follow-up, varying from place to
place.
I still believe in sowing the seed, and
I've got a few thousand men of God
in heaven who believe that as well.
But we believe even more in training.
Now, when Brother Chaco, who stands back there,
a man of great stature, my wife was
telling me how distinguished Chaco looks.
Now, when Chaco joined Operation Mobilization, how old
were you?
Seventeen.
Who was even going to take people into
a training movement at seventeen?
I was just with A.G. Phillip, a
very close friend.
He remembers Chaco.
He's so proud about Chaco.
Wasn't he involved with your coming?
He's feeling very happy to be here.
About that, with many other unhappinesses in Kuwait.
So, the key in OM is the training
of individuals.
And I've been saying this since I arrived
in Bombay.
Training of individuals.
When those individuals are trained, living in revival,
mature, they have discernment, they can follow up.
Most follow-up work is better outside of
an international hodgepodge.
We can't do everything.
We can't plant churches and end up with
OM churches in a nation that, in 1949,
got her independence.
Those churches need to be planted by Indians,
by Indian fellowships.
Now, we can do some pioneering.
And when I share tomorrow, this afternoon, tomorrow,
about the Muslim burden we have for follow
-up, I think you'll be interested.
Another key thing is, is this powerful Christian
literature, especially literature for believers, an important part
of following up people or not?
I would say that if it wasn't for
the Christian literature in India, the state of
the church would even be 50 times worse
than it is now.
We cannot underestimate what God has done through
the literature.
Plus, training weekends, conferences, conventions, endless seminars, endless
training programs, literally now in the thousands, all
of it is follow-up.
But the thing, of course, that some people
don't like, and this is where they criticize
us, is that we don't plant churches.
Other people, and I think they're a majority,
they are happy with OM because we don't
plant churches.
And OM has one foot very squarely in
the traditional church.
In Pakistan, our work, even more than India,
is linked with a traditional church, the Church
of Pakistan.
God is working in that church.
I've met with many of the bishops.
They're born-again men.
They want to reach Muslims.
We have tremendous credibility, and we can build
on that foundation in Pakistan.
Over here, we have had that at times,
and we've not had it at times, the
tremendous influence from, you know, indirectly from Bakhshin
movements, from other independent movements, fellowship movements, have
within OM, among the recruits, and some of
you, pushed OM further into the assemblies, Pentecostal,
Brethren, non-traditional church area.
Now, there are some beautiful exceptions, and we
still have, you know, some credibility with some
of these established churches.
Now, we know with the established church, sometimes
it's just impossible.
The unbelievers, the politics, so that's why we're
not making any simple blanket theory, and each
state has quite a bit of freedom to
develop their work.
One way or the other, we hopefully, to
some degree, both.
So I feel a lot of follow-up
work is done.
I feel that 80% of the real
work in India is follow-up.
It's long-term training of men of God,
preparing them for a life ministry, but not
telling them what that life ministry has to
be.
They must find that before God, and we,
especially with our international flavor, we must beware,
especially as we have some money, we must
beware of playing the Holy Spirit.
And praise the Lord for these brothers, so
many who are now in follow-up work.
Of course, they've all discovered it's harder than
they thought when they're on OM.
I believe in the next two years, working
together, we will increase our effectiveness in training
people for church planting.
Now, we launched this program with Brother SS.
No, no, Sabu.
I can never pronounce that name.
Subodh Sahu.
And maybe we should have a report back
on that.
There's so many things we could have a
report back on.
But am I not correct?
We had a small church planting training team
with him.
Again, we get going in so many directions.
And I think we need to be able
to very lovingly explain to people, because people
who know OM, they don't believe we're just
running around giving out literature.
Do you think Tony Sargent has come back
here for his third or fourth trip because
he thinks it's some kind of superficial literature
operation?
But I think we need to be able
to answer some of these questions.
We need to really be able to show
that follow-up isn't just one thing.
Follow-up is many things.
And lastly, I feel until we get more
men of maturity and integrity who are free
from legalism and know really what it is
to walk with God, that a lot of
this talk about follow-up in churches, it's
just going to create more dead carnal churches.
And my plea is for quality and reality.
And Tozer said we can't reproduce anything better
than what we are ourselves.
And if we're not men of quality and
honesty and integrity who can stand firm when
criticism comes and backbiting and all the hellish
fiery darts of Satan, then a lot of
this, it's just talk.
It's just talk.
Of course, we know going into a tribal
area where the people are already responsive, almost
anybody can do that.
But two years later also you also have
an awful lot of problems and divisions.
Because actually tribal work, though it looks easy,
is very complicated.
Especially for non-tribal people.
Now this has been beautiful that in NOM
some people have tribal background.
And you should never be ashamed of that.
My wife is so proud that she's got
tribal background.
She's got Seminole Indian blood somewhere microscopically in
her veins.
Proud of that.
But, you know, we have to face the
reality that one of the best things we
have done is we have trained a lot
of people in NOM who are now working
among their tribes.
Gopal Himbran, Centali.
Better him to go back to the Centalis
than six more new recruits from Kotyam who
believe God has called them to tribal work
because they raised their hand in a big
meeting in South India and said, God has
called me to be a missionary.
And my grandmother prophesied over me that I
would be a missionary.
So...
Who has the next question?
Linda and then somebody else had their hand
up over here.
You tell them in a nutshell that one
of my close associates and I had a
run-in with Bombay Customs because in the
early days of OM we believed that we
had a quota of goods that we could
bring into the country.
So we brought our quota.
It was fully declared.
It was the quota system.
Then we made the mistake, the most fatal
mistake in my whole Christian career.
We sold our possessions to put money into
the work of God.
I remember Oscar Brown in the court in
Bombay speaking out.
He was one of the most great lawyers
of integrity and churchmen in Bombay.
He's died recently.
Speaking out about these young men with a
noble cause under pressure sold their possessions in
order to live.
And the judge, you know, he's just amazed.
And the judge warned us there was no
sentence.
He warned...
I had pled guilty.
I had to plead guilty to the technicality
of the law.
But the technicality of the law as far
as customs is exactly the same as being
a smuggler, technically.
We had broke a technicality of law like
99% probably of the people who cross
customs at least more than a few times.
So we pled guilty.
The judge, with a big smile I think,
he warned us that really we shouldn't do
this.
Now this could have all been stopped because
the customs wanted a bribe.
I almost punched him.
And so we would not pay a bribe.
Both men in customs in Bombay at that
time were later removed for corruption.
But, you know, it was too late.
Our names, Mike Wilcher and I were the
two leading men.
He was the one that was there.
My wife was in the flat.
Let me give you a little background on
that.
Somebody was very bitter against Mike.
They wanted some money.
I think because he had used his picture,
their picture in a booklet.
And he thought if my picture's in a
booklet, I should get money.
Well, Mike, he told this guy, get lost.
There was another British O.M.er who
backslid into homosexuality and embezzlement.
I've never figured out which one of these
two went to customs and said that we
were smugglers.
One of the two went and they had
a full scale raid on Mike Wilcher's flat.
You know, they thought this was a major
smuggling operation.
And unfortunately, all the O.M.ers, foreigners
who had gone through Bombay, had left their
possessions in that flat.
It was only so much each person, but
there were 25 people or more.
And it was, you know, razor blades, cassette
recorders.
And of course, when the customs hit that,
I mean, you can imagine.
So that's the story.
And Mike, of course, was arrested.
I was in Andhra preaching, of course.
But I got the phone call back to
Bombay.
I was not arrested.
Then Keith Beckwith died in a motor crash.
I wanted to leave to go to the
funeral.
Only when I decided to leave to go
to the funeral, they arrested me.
So then I got enmeshed in it.
So this all took a lot of time.
It's a beautiful lesson in my spiritual experience.
Meanwhile, our names were submitted to the police
as persona non grata.
People that we'd rather not have in India,
which they do to smugglers.
Now here's the interesting thing.
We don't actually know if that is the
reason.
As far as I can understand, that is
the reason.
But they will not tell you in Delhi
the full reasons.
There were other complaints supposedly about me.
I heard, for instance, that the Communist Party
in Kerala complained about me.
I was pretty strong in some of my
early ministry in Kerala.
I heard also that my name was listed
in other ways as an international director of
a multinational propaganda organization.
It gets very confusing once they start pulling
in information.
But as far as I can see, that
is the basic issue.
We believe that we could get my name
cleared, but because OM has had so much
freedom, because we have tried a couple of
times, people are always promising me they can
do this.
It's not easy.
And I don't want to stir up difficulties
in Delhi, because we never dreamed that we'd
have all this freedom for 20 years.
They don't bother foreigners coming and going, British
people staying in the country.
Let me explain that.
The British people come in on OM as
non-missionaries.
They're trainees, they're helpers, they're learners, they're people.
Different British people classify themselves in different ways,
but they cannot be technically classified as missionaries.
If they're technically missionaries, they must register, because
that's another law.
Missionaries must register.
We produced a paper showing that OMers from
the Commonwealth are not missionaries.
They don't baptize, they don't do these four
or five things that makes a person a
missionary.
But this eventually could go and be a
court case.
When something is hard to define, some say
this, some say you're a missionary.
We're facing this problem right now in BR.
Some say you're not a missionary.
Where does it get settled?
You know, it goes to court.
Now we don't particularly want to go to
court on this issue, but maybe someday we
will.
Maybe we'll win the case that Mike Wheat
is definitely not a missionary.
He doesn't baptize people.
He doesn't look like a missionary.
He's involved in literature work.
He's involved in other things.
And of course, it's a gray area.
Well, we're getting a lot of information these
days.
Don't be afraid to ask me any question.
If you don't want to do it publicly,
you can ask it privately.
You can ask anything.
We have nothing to hide.
You can ask about the mystery fights between
Bangkok and Kathmandu.
You can ask me the Khyber Pass operation
with Peter Kahneman.
You know, you think for 20 years we've
been sitting around and we made mistakes and
we rectified them.
And I praise God that as far as
I can see, you know, O.M. doesn't
have any skeletons in the closet.
We have nothing to hide.
And this idea that Christians are perfect, they
don't make any mistake, they never tell any
lies, they never treat anybody wrongly, they're totally
consistent, always loving, always abounding, perfect husbands, perfect
lives.
Who has a question?
Another question.
You know, one of the things that I
think might help me someday to get clear
of New Delhi is that I learned from
that lesson.
And I've never had any difficulty with any
government or any custom, any of that kind
of thing, since that experience.
So my record all over the world, I
now can become a British citizen if I
want, it is completely clear.
My family record is completely clear.
My record is clear.
I don't blame you if someday you get
some doubts about O.M. or about George
Verma.
I get doubts about myself.
So, you know, but if you want more
evidence or anybody who's backbiting us or gossiping
want evidence, we've had the same board of
directors, many of them, outstanding, one of them
an outstanding British lawyer.
They're men from different churches, different backgrounds.
They're not in O.M. They don't get
any money from O.M. I've been subject
to these same men for over 20 years.
And I tell you, they're not going to
let any fooling around.
And the same men in New Jersey, some
of them have been on the board of
my friends for 27 years.
You know, one of the board members in
New Jersey has just been elected as mayor
of the town.
These are honest men.
One of the other board members is a
leader in the state.
He's actually a top man in state government,
a man of outstanding Christian ethics.
These board members outside of O.M. have
a very high reputation and they are watching
us and we cannot get away with things.
Little things, of course, you can get away
with.
Even then, sometimes they find out.
When I arrive back in Britain, I have
to meet with the board and I have
to give a report and share with them.
So I think that may help you and
maybe someday I'm allowed even to go back
into Russia.
The only other country I had trouble with,
government, was Russia.
That was before India.
And that was definitely for, this is why
you can see the other thing gets a
little confusing, that was also for smuggling, smuggling
Bibles.
And some of you know Brother Andrew, God
smuggler.
Here's your leader, Brother George, God's bungler.
I blew it and got arrested by the
secret police, but I am now allowed back
in Russia.
I've just been ministering in Russia.
And when I left the country, I thought
maybe they had my name.
They really took everything off me and gave
me a very thorough check.
My son and I, this was a family
trip.
Question.
15 minutes to tea time.
First of all, dealing with criticism is the
question.
Because of seemingly the reputation I have now
as being accepted as a quote, Christian leader,
man of God, and some things even more
high sounding, a lot of people, generally speaking,
are afraid to be honest with me.
That is a great problem.
And so they will gossip against OM.
They will speak against OM.
And if they have the opportunity for me
to sit down and have a cup of
tea with them, they will be absolutely friendly.
I don't hold that against people.
People are human.
People are weak.
Some have the courage to write.
And when they do, it's not usually about
me personally.
It's usually about the work.
It's about breaking the Sabbath, selling books on
Sunday.
It's about, we had recently books on the
ship that they thought taught evolution.
Things like that.
Selling the RSV Bible, number of letters on
that lately.
And of course, I try to just bring
it into balance.
Sometimes I can even agree with them.
I say, look, personally, I agree with that.
And we're moving that way.
You know, there are 1,700 people.
The enemy is trying to attack us.
And I would ask you, even though you
don't agree with us on this point, can
you pray with us?
If it's personal contact, and I sense the
doors open, I try to turn around and
say, you know, do you have any struggles
in your life?
You know, is your movement perfect?
Maybe I can learn something from what you're
doing.
Often people can criticize, but have no constructive
answers.
They're like, I don't like this.
Why do you do that?
Well, you know, what do you think we
should do?
And when they give that answer, usually there's
several other factors.
Number one, we may have already tried it.
We may already be doing it.
Actually, there may not even be any disunity.
Another important thing is that OM has a
degree of freedom in each country to develop
its strategy for that country.
Praise God that we don't have to get
cleared most of what we want to decide
here with some board sitting back in New
Jersey who've never been to India, don't know
any of you.
I heard of one group in India, they
couldn't sell a bicycle rickshaw without the approval
of a board in England, and they only
met every second month.
And so that bicycle rickshaw sat and rusted
because it needed a board decision.
Personally, of course, greater criticism will come from
people who are in the work, who feel
free to come to you and eventually let
you have it.
Praise the Lord for that privilege.
I've had that, and sometimes those people have
been right, and I've just repented.
Sometimes in tears I've had to repent of
some things in front of the whole coordinators
conference, weeping, things where I had sinned, usually
with my tongue, and usually just coming across
too strongly where an individual got hurt, because
sometimes it's hard to separate the policy from
the individual.
I was really more concerned about the policy,
but it got mixed up, and I came
down too hard on an individual.
He was hurt, of course, and he immediately
started talking to everybody else, and that's the
amazing thing, even within OM, when you're hurting
an individual, they seldom come to you.
So I've had to learn to live with
that.
They're going to go to Roton, they're going
to go to Biley, they're going to go
to Maiden, who did George Burroughs hurt me,
why did he say this?
They will then come to me, and I
will repent, and then try to resurrect the
fellowship.
This is why a movement like OM has
to go slower, because we believe in fellowship,
we believe in love, we believe in ironing
out every break of fellowship.
It takes time, it takes time, and 1
Corinthians 13 must always be, you know, always
be the road ahead.
Someone else, anything, there was somebody in this
section here had their hand up.
We've been doing it, so as far as
I know, there is the freedom, but it
must be done very wisely and very carefully,
and the trustees need to know what's happening.
You see, one of the problems, I see
this with a number of groups, to go
to the road where the response is.
This is heavy teaching from the church girls,
from Donald McGovern, you know what they told
us in Bangladesh, Donald McGovern?
Stop the work among Muslims, they upset the
government.
Work among tribals, work among Hindus.
So that's what a lot of the people
in Bangladesh, yet 85% of the people
are Muslim.
Now, McGovern even writes me personally, we're good
friends, he says OM India should work among
tribals.
You know, even though he's a brilliant man,
don't think he understands all the problems, because
internationals and foreigners working among tribals in India
today has a lot of ramifications.
Just study the northeast India problem.
So we are interested in tribals, we do
believe in going to some degree where response
is, and a vast percentage of OM graduates
are working among the responses.
Many of the brothers from Kerala who have
been trained in OM, where are they today?
They're in Kerala, because Kerala is responsible.
If you can't see people come to Christ
in Kerala, you can't see them come to
Christ anywhere.
Some of them, of course, come to Christ
annually, but I believe that OM must not
lose its goal.
We're all talking about goals.
OM has goals.
We came to India to reach unreached people,
especially the Muslims.
That's why we came here.
We also came to reach the masses, and
to mobilize Indian believers, see them trained, and
turned upside down.
They were the three-pronged push.
Reaching the masses, we've done very well.
Training Indians, we've won some, lost some.
Great encouragement.
Reaching Muslims, first stage, yes.
Literature, preaching, praise the Lord for that.
Don't belittle previous works, build on it.
But now I think the time has come
to get back to this original vision of
trying, especially since we know so much more,
of trying to do a pioneer work among
Muslims, and one of the big reasons is
hardly anyone else is willing to do that.
And I believe now God has given OM
a degree of expertise and understanding, and to
some degree, some men are ready to move
into that.
So you're going to find me, a number
of us, not wanting to take on too
many other things, you know, this is one
of the criticisms foreigners have about OM India.
Many foreigners feel they come here, they're just
truck drivers, they're waterboys, and you know, general
encouragers.
It's a miracle we get people to come
back a second time.
But if we're going to get some thinking,
committed foreigners, and by the way, a foreigner
working among a Muslim, say in North India,
might have just as much possibility as a
breakthrough as someone from South India doing it,
or someone from the North, but a totally
different people's group.
Hindu, sweeper caste background, trying to win a
well educated Muslim in Jesus Christ.
We've got to face the reality of that.
So I believe there is a place for
a small number of foreigners who will master
the language and help penetrate this huge group
of people, the Muslims.
And there's room for Indians, of course.
I noticed even with Brother Shamshad that he's
being sort of challenged to be the sort
of acting state leader in the absence of
Marcos, you see.
And he's getting well enmeshed into the OM
jungle of administration, and looking after the team,
and all these things.
But you know, if we wanted to have
a real pioneer effort among Muslims, and Brother
Shamshad was interested in that, one of the
first things we have to do is try
to separate him to a large degree from
all the rest of this OM paraphernalia.
Because as long as he's got all that
paraphernalia, all the gospel packets, and big campaigns,
and all this, he's going to have difficulty
penetrating the Muslim people in the way that
we would like to see it done.
And as is happening in Bangladesh.
Now at the same time, Shamshad, I'm sure,
is happy to get all these other experiences.
And maybe in the future, if there's agreement,
the Lord will lead into that kind of
thing.
All these things are being talked about.
And I think it's good for foreigners to
come their first two years, same as Indians,
get the basics, relationships, love.
You see, the basics, please understand this, the
basics of OM are not book distribution, gospel
pack distribution, truck driving.
They're all helpful.
The basics are, do you know how to
forgive people?
I want to ask you, my dear brother,
if you don't know how to forgive people,
you never have had OM basic.
Because without that, you're going to be an
ill man.
And OM is not going to go anywhere.
So learning forgiveness, learning how to pray, learning
how to stand against the fiery darts of
the enemy, learning how to love your brother,
though he may be from a totally different
background, though he may not like you, I
find even in OM, if a brother doesn't
like him, then he doesn't like that.
This is spiritual kindergarten.
When I find somebody doesn't like me, I
turn on the valve.
Peter Conlon came into me.
Boy, I'll never forget it.
When he first joined OM, he was really
upset.
You're not loving all this talk about love.
You're not loving.
I said, man, you're right.
This is the greatest need in my life.
I knelt on the floor and asked him
if he would pray that God would fill
me with greater Calvary love.
He just almost collapsed.
I remember a pastor in Mexico.
This was when I was really hyper.
I mean, some of you think I'm hyper.
You should have seen me when I first
went to Mexico.
And, you know, I went into this pastor
and I rebuked him in the name of
the Lord because he was not storing the
literature properly.
Really, we had given this man a lot
of tracts.
And I was trying to get so many
million tracts out in a short period of
time.
And this got me more hyper.
I was studying at the university.
I was engaged in everything that was going
wrong with that thing.
I was preaching every night in Spanish that
most people couldn't understand, except the Pentecostals.
And many, many other problems.
And we gave this man a lot of
literature.
And when I went back months later, we
got married, went back to Mexico, and I
rebuked him in the name of the Lord.
And he let go at me.
You Americans, you think you come down here
with your superiority.
You think you're going to tell us, boom,
boom, boom.
And God just broke.
And I just knelt on the floor.
And I asked that pastor, please forgive me.
I am an ugly American.
I don't know how I said it in
my broken Spanish.
And I tell you, that pastor and I
were both on that floor weeping.
And, you know, I learned the hard way.
Cultural sensitivity.
And it is a very, very long, long
road.
Well, I got sidetracked from the original question,
but trust that will help.
Three more minutes.
Who has the final question?
One question.
What does the word innuendo mean?
Innuendo.
I didn't even know what that meant until
Mrs. Durham, in editing my book, Pseudo-Discipleship,
put in Mr. Innuendo.
I thought, who is this guy?
Innuendo is linked with the word insinuation.
In other words, you don't, I don't say,
Rudy, you're, you know, lazy.
I insinuate by various things.
Like, you know, I walk into your room
and it's 11 in the morning.
And I say, oh, hi, Rudy.
Just get up.
11 in the morning?
Of course you didn't get up.
Insinuate.
It's such a subtle form of communication.
You don't tell a man, you're ugly.
You're going to do that?
You say, brother, have you ever looked in
a mirror?
That's a poor example, of course.
So that's the word.
Don't be afraid to ask the meaning of
words.
So many words get thrown out of nowhere.
English is not your first language.
Spanish is my second language.
I preach in Spanish.
Many Spanish words, I don't know.
I hardly know any swear words.
I know one.
So, you know, don't be afraid to write
and say, what does this word mean?
Because some words will never get the full
meaning.
Let me answer a question somebody else asked
me.
Is Ray Eicher an Indian?
I'll pass out a piece of paper.
Let everybody write down.
Is Ray Eicher an Indian?
If I get British citizenship next year or
three years, which I'm not sure the Lord
wants me to get.
But if I do, am I British?
Some will say yes.
George Verwer is definitely British.
Look, he has a British passport.
I go to preach at Oxford.
I stand up.
I'm British.
I give my testimony.
They're just going to be sitting there.
So, a lot, you know, if we can
learn this, it would help us in a
lot of our problems.
When we're just learning a language, when we
are young in the Lord or through other
problems, we like to put everything in a
box.
We want to get Ray Eicher in a
box.
Is he Indian or is he not Indian?
The fact is, life is far more complicated.
And Ray Eicher has a complicated background.
Technically, he is an Indian in many ways.
He is an Indian, but in fact, he
is not an Indian by blood.
We just tried a little investigation late last
night.
See if Ray Eicher had any Indian blood.
And I think he would like me to
share this.
As you know, Ray Eicher has not had
any contact with his true blood parents.
There's nothing wrong with that.
We, another main top OM leader, finally had
the courage to share that with me after
many years.
And praise God that today, that is not
a big problem as it was 20 years
ago.
Ray does not know his blood parents, but
he knows, I believe, both of his blood
parents were from England, or both from England.
So, Ray Eicher is British.
But you see, that's another complication.
His parents, the Eichers, missionaries in India, German
-Canadian-American connection, they adopted him, how old
were you?
Nine days.
And they reared him in India.
You see.
So, you know, Ray is as close to
an Indian with no Indian blood as anybody
could be.
So, whether you want to fully accept him
as an Indian, of course, you have that
privilege.
No one can force you.
But the fact and the truth is now,
his parents have moved to Florida.
Another complication is that his wife is not
an Indian.
His wife is German, who I was involved
in her conversion.
And I can tell you, Chris is a
very close dear friend.
She's a real German.
And if you think she's an Indian, go
live in Ramachak.
So, it's a complicated international marriage.
Now, I understand this great man Theodore Williams,
so highly esteemed.
Where is his wife from?
Where?
America.
What are the children going to be?
It's an international marriage.
Every international marriage has complications.
So, let's try to stop putting people in
boxes.
Let's have more understanding and flexibility.
Because if we try to run OM through
the box mentality, the label mentality, look, we
all are equal.
He got a fridge.
I should get a fridge.
His son is going to study in England.
My son can study in England.
You might ask yourself a lot of different
questions.
Who's going to pay for it?
The fact that Ray has massive overseas support,
that's quite normal.
You shouldn't feel guilty about that if you're
an Indian.
And this is one of my greatest concerns
about the financial policy change, is that some
who are living on national support, which is
still a full part of OM policy, they're
going to feel second-class citizens.
Don't make that mistake.
That's the third time now I've spoke about
that.
Don't make that mistake.
I personally will still give my greater commitment
to the national support side.
I will let Ray and Joseph and the
men who are moving this Indian support, I'll
let them work on that.
I am going to work to send the
money in, general fund, to support the nationals
that we have already committed ourselves to.
It's the new people, it's further big growth
that have to be more linked with this
other side.
Now if some of those people who have
been with us a long time move into
this category by God's mercy and grace, fine.
But there is no pressure from my side
to put the one system as better than
the other.
In fact, I'm more convinced than ever that
any system we choose is loaded with problems.
That's the way life is.
So I would ask you to try to
understand that we're dealing with many complications, many
different kinds of people.
We now have Indians, full-blooded Indians, who
are married to Indians who are other nationalities.
Chacko, what nationality is your wife?
Singaporean.
What is her roots and background?
Kerala.
Where?
Where did you find this girl?
So this is why in OM, there are
some basic policies.
But once it gets as complicated as OM,
international marriages, other factors, we're going to have
to examine each case individually.
And we must trust that God will give
wisdom to the trust of the people of
the nation.
Trustees who are also in subject to me,
and I am subject to others, we must
trust that they are going to make the
right decision.
Any decision that's made, just as in society,
you can protest it.
You can come to me, you can write
to me, and you can go to other
trustees.
And I believe if we develop this kind
of maturity, the possibilities for in-depth work
in India are unlimited.
God has given us a foundation.
God has given us unity.
God has given us good men.
And God has given us some money in
answer to prayer.
Money that's been cleansed with the tears of
the saints and washed in the blood of
Christ.
And I believe with that combination, through prayer,
I think we can go a long way
in this next decade.
And I am very excited about the possibilities.
Let's pray.
Go to T.
Father, we thank you for this time together
to speak openly and honestly about real issues.
We have nothing to hide.
We're not playing games in a closet with
labels.
We are real people living in a real
world, following you, aware of our human weaknesses,
repenting of any sin that you convict us
of, and going forth in victory and power.
We know the enemy is going to attack
this work.
He is going to try to find weaker
people and destroy them, and through them destroy
the work.
Or he will attack even the strongest people,
and in subtle moments of temptation, attempt to
destroy them and use them to destroy this
work.
And we know if Satan can destroy OM
in India, many, many others throughout India will
become confused and discouraged, and all around the
world as well.
Lord, we are jealous for this, your work.
And we will stay here in Kathmandu for
five more weeks if we have to, to
get the necessary victory and the necessary unity
to move forward in grace and in power.
Guide us, we pray now together, as we
fellowship and as we come by your grace
and power into greater maturity, spiritual wisdom, and
discernment for your glory through Jesus Christ.
Amen.