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I really appreciate you being here, and we

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have a very important topic to talk about.

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This is a terrific conference addressing the, I

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think, most critical area of social challenge, moral

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challenge, and religious witness challenge in our culture.

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That is the challenge, the attack on the

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family and how it affects what it means

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to be Christians and our witness as Christians.

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And I would like you to listen, obviously,

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very closely to what I say.

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Now, it's a bit of a challenge for

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this way.

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Now, this conference is made up of a

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number of different kinds of presentations, both the

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plenary sessions and the workshops.

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And some of them are presented more on

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the popular presentation, and others are challenging more

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intellectually.

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And I certainly think this is interesting.

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I will present it as interestingly as I

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can, but it is probing very deeply at

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an issue that couldn't be more relevant.

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So please stay with me and listen.

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It will probably take about 40, 45 minutes

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to get through, and then we'll have plenty

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of time for some dialogue and interaction.

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And I really would appreciate your response.

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There are some copies of the paper there

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on the back table that you can have.

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My apologies.

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I've done some editing on the flight in

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this morning, and so what I'm going to

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give you will have some variation if you're

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reading along.

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Maybe it would be better just to listen.

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But think with me, if you will, on

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the subject of eternally fixed sexual being for

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an age of plastic sexuality.

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Now, the idea of plastic sexuality might be

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easy enough to understand.

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Obviously, for Christians this would be something very

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foreign.

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The idea that who we are as sexual

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beings, our sexual identities, are things that, you

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know, something that is malleable, something that can

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be changed and shaped, something under our own

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control.

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It can be anything we want to be.

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That idea, plastic sexuality, in contrast to the

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idea that who we are as sexual beings

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is something fixed, in fact, so fixed that

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it is intended by God and planned by

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God to last eternally.

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So the abstract, the basic idea of what

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we're going to spend this next hour and

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a half talking about is this.

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That plastic sexuality is the idea that sexual

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identity has no fixed meaning.

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So anyone can shape their own sexual identity

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any way they might happen to choose, and

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by rejecting fixed sexual identity this view now

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sweeping our universities denies any possible basis for

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affirming gender roles.

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Christians must prepare to resist such thinking by

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clarifying biblical evidence for the doctrine that human

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sexual identity is, in fact, eternal.

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Now, Christians have always believed that the meaning

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of human sexual identity involves something more than

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biological reproduction.

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Even outside the church, few have disputed the

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idea that who we are as sexual beings

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involves something more than physical form.

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Yet when we start looking at what this

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something more might be, our ability to agree

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breaks down rather rapidly, usually because we find

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there are different opinions on whether or to

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what degree sexual identity is fundamental to actually

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being human.

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This will be clear after asking a few

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simple questions.

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Just think about them with me for a

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minute, if you would.

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Is sexual identity something basic to humanity itself,

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or is it simply peripheral?

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Do sexual differences matter even at the most

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fundamental level of human existence, or is sexual

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being ultimately irrelevant at the core of human

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identity?

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Does basic human identity lie beyond whatever differences

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divide men from women and women from men,

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or is the division between male and female

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humanity essential to who we are, essential to

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who we are as human beings?

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Put in theological terms, the issue has to

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do with whether differences in sexual identity will

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characterize human existence eternally, or will they someday

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come to an end?

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Will sexual being remain when we are raised

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to a state of sinless immortality at the

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return of Christ, or is it going to

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pass away along with pain, suffering, and death

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when the present order is replaced by a

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new heaven and a new earth?

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Have you thought about that before?

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Have you thought about the implications?

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After commenting on the relevance of an opposing

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way of thinking now arising in contemporary Western

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culture, I'm going to present arguments to support

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why I believe Scripture teaches there is an

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eternal dimension to the difference that distinguishes male

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from female human beings.

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These arguments will also serve to explain why

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I think this particular biblical doctrine is pivotal

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for Christians right now as we battle the

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culture over the meaning of male versus female

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gender identity and the morality of gender-based

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roles in relationships between men and women.

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First of all, a look at the contemporary

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relevance of something called plastic sexuality.

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Today, the essential or fixed nature of human

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sexual identity is under fire, mainly because it

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stands directly opposed to the social and moral

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deconstructionism that underlies hard-line feminism and homosexual

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militancy.

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The essentialist view of human sexual identity is

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the view associated with traditional Christian morality.

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It refers to thinking there is some objective

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reality that establishes a fixed, unchangeable meaning to

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the difference between men and women.

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It involves the conviction that while men and

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women share a common humanity, there is something

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fundamental about human sexual identity that is not

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the same when men as men relate to

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women as women or as compared to women

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as women.

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And not only is this difference real, it

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also is terribly important because it is rooted

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in nature or in creation or in the

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will of God.

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That's the essentialist view.

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But in recent years, a growing number of

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social scientists have started promoting a very different

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view concerning human sexual identity.

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This view, sometimes referred to as the constructionist

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view, is based on the idea that human

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sexual identity is something conditioned entirely by the

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social and cultural history of a people and

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by personal choice.

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Constructionists claim that there are no fixed features

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that define or restrict who we are as

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sexual beings, and so of course there can

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be no moral boundaries that depend on thinking

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sexual differences are actually real.

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Constructionist scholars now writing for academic journals and

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books are promoting the idea that human sexuality

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is plastic, by which they mean individuals are

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free to shape their sexual identities any way

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they choose.

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As described by Adrian Thatcher, plastic sexuality is

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the idea that human sexuality is something malleable,

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something, quote, able to adjust to changing circumstances,

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that a person's sexual identity is something in

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his or her control.

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Thus social scientist Milton Diamond says a person

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can, quote, develop and express his or her

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potential in any direction, on all levels of

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sexuality, without attaching a negative value to any

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variation just because it's different.

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To give a few more examples, Andrea Dworkin

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in her book, Woman-Hating, argues that the

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categories man and woman are in fact, quote,

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fictions, caricatures, or cultural constructs, which are, quote,

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demeaning to the female and a dead end

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for male and female both.

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John Stoltenberg in his book, Refusing to Be

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a Man, even says the physical biological differences

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we think distinguish male from female and female

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from male are in fact culturally determined.

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And Anthony Giddens in his book, The Transformation

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of Intimacy, claims, to quote him, Sexuality today

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has been discovered, opened up, and made accessible

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through the development of varying lifestyles.

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It is something each of us has or

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cultivates, no longer a natural condition which an

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individual accepts as a preordained state of affairs.

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Somehow, in a way, that has to be

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investigated, sexuality functions as a malleable feature of

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self, a prime connecting point between body, self

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-identity, and social norms.

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Now, logically, such thinking naturally requires that one

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reject fixed gender roles.

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In fact, the logic of plastic sexuality mandates

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deconstruction of all normative standards, be they moral,

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cultural, or even biological, that depend on thinking

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that differences between male and female are actually

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real.

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Of course, whatever sexual ethic comes from such

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thinking has to wreak havoc with all efforts

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aimed at generating or maintaining deeply human relationships

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between men as men and women as women.

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Any ethic based on the idea of plastic

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sexuality must naturally despise the notion of complementary

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difference and sexual union, and it must ridicule

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evidence that good might result from cooperation between

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fixed differences and sexual identity.

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This means the idea of plastic sexuality, in

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the end, destroys the social and moral foundations

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upon which the institution of marriage depends.

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So proponents of plastic sexuality actually praise the

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demise of traditional marriage as if it were

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some kind of moral goal.

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Instead, what they seek is realization of an

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ironic notion of sexual equality.

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The notion is ironic because while motivated by

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desire to improve human sexual relationships in the

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name of equality, their goal, if realized, actually

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dehumanizes human sexuality by reducing sexual identity to

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distinctionless monolithic sameness incapable of sustaining any meaningful

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relationship.

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Ultimately, the sort of moral thinking that arises

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from a plastic notion of human sexual identity

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must be characterized by intentional self-conscious rebellion

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against God.

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Why?

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Because any moral perspective set on denying the

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reality of meaningful difference between men and women

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has to result in an ethic that disdains

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the will and work of the Creator.

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Yet even as the non-essentialist plastic view

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of human sexuality grows more popular in the

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culture, ability to justify the position must always

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remain weak.

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No anthropology that rejects the essential nature of

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human sexuality can explain the mystifying depth involved

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in relationships where men as men relate to

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women as women.

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Nor can it explain the persistent power for

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both good or evil generated by interaction between

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the sexes, a power that very obviously persists

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even where biological reproduction is completely out of

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the picture.

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Universal human experience is inclined another way, and

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common experience alone should warn Christians that perhaps

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we ought to examine more closely what the

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culture is now so busy rejecting.

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Although many in our churches are today drifting

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with the culture beguiled by the silent song

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of teachers now promoting the sort of sexual

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equality that is produced by erasing sexual distinctions,

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faithful Christians must resist such thinking by examining

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biblical and rational reasons that sustain the meaning

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of difference in human sexual identity.

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Moving on to a discussion of the importance

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of distinguishing being and function.

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Before looking at the evidence of scripture directly,

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we must set the stage with a bit

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of philosophical discussion.

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What I have in mind is something the

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language and thinking of the Bible presumes, but

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that we must make explicit in order to

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avoid confusing influences arising from our culture.

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So before looking at what the Bible says

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about the permanent nature of sexual being, we

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first need to look at the importance of

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distinguishing between the concept of sexual being per

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se and the functions of men and women

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as sexual beings.

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If we fail to see this distinction, we

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can easily misread scripture and might fail to

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appreciate how consistent the Bible is in all

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00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,300
it says about norms that govern the way

272
00:12:44,300 --> 00:12:45,740
men and women relate to one another.

273
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Any serious examination of the essential nature of

274
00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:53,540
human sexual identity has to start by assuming

275
00:12:53,540 --> 00:12:56,660
that we can distinguish conceptually between sexual being

276
00:12:56,660 --> 00:12:59,020
per se and sexual functions that relate to

277
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specific sexual identity.

278
00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,000
It starts by understanding that there is a

279
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:07,220
conceptual difference between our existence as sexual beings

280
00:13:07,220 --> 00:13:09,620
and our acting on the basis of either

281
00:13:09,620 --> 00:13:13,180
one of two specific sexual identities, either male

282
00:13:13,180 --> 00:13:14,420
or female.

283
00:13:15,420 --> 00:13:18,760
Indeed, one way to understand the basic division

284
00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,040
that separates complementarians, Christians who teach the Bible

285
00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,760
require respect for gender roles, from egalitarians, Christians

286
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,000
who deny there is any legitimate basis for

287
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,660
gender roles, is that egalitarians follow the culture

288
00:13:31,660 --> 00:13:35,680
in refusing to distinguish between sexual being and

289
00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:39,820
sexual function, while complementarians oppose the culture by

290
00:13:39,820 --> 00:13:41,200
insisting they are different.

291
00:13:43,100 --> 00:13:46,680
On this matter, egalitarians, indeed, egalitarians on this

292
00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:50,240
matter, side with the thinking of contemporary social

293
00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,580
scientists not promoting plastic sexuality, while complementarians do

294
00:13:54,580 --> 00:13:54,860
not.

295
00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:59,320
By the quote-unquote being of human sexual

296
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,700
existence, we refer to men and women insofar

297
00:14:01,700 --> 00:14:05,720
as both sexes are centers of transcendent worth,

298
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,260
are creatures uniquely privileged by the image of

299
00:14:08,260 --> 00:14:10,520
God, are moral beings each of whom is

300
00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,020
responsible for his or her own actions, and

301
00:14:13,020 --> 00:14:15,500
are, in the language of Immanuel Kant, persons

302
00:14:15,500 --> 00:14:18,500
with the dignity of being ends in themselves

303
00:14:18,500 --> 00:14:20,840
and never just means to an end.

304
00:14:21,500 --> 00:14:24,700
And by functions in connection with human sexuality,

305
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,260
we refer to men and women insofar as

306
00:14:27,260 --> 00:14:30,420
each acts in ways shaped by his or

307
00:14:30,420 --> 00:14:34,400
her specific gender identity, and is assigned responsibilities

308
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,460
in relations with other sexual beings that are

309
00:14:37,460 --> 00:14:38,980
specific to their gender identity.

310
00:14:39,940 --> 00:14:42,700
Sexual functions affect matters that go beyond the

311
00:14:42,700 --> 00:14:45,560
sexual being of mere individuals.

312
00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,280
They are what define human sexuality to the

313
00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,300
degree that it involves interaction and relationship between

314
00:14:51,300 --> 00:14:55,040
persons in ways defined by specific gender identity.

315
00:14:55,860 --> 00:15:00,200
These interactive functions, or relationships, shape the meaning

316
00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,580
of human sexuality in the context of community.

317
00:15:04,100 --> 00:15:07,320
And they concern the meaning of human sexuality

318
00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,680
as it has to do with productive capacities,

319
00:15:09,980 --> 00:15:12,900
assignments, achievements, and goals, what the Bible calls

320
00:15:12,900 --> 00:15:15,780
being united and being fruitful.

321
00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:19,920
Because human sexual existence involves both being and

322
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:24,040
function, and any way of understanding human sexuality

323
00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,740
that focuses exclusively on one and not the

324
00:15:26,740 --> 00:15:30,280
other, any way that fails to adequately distinguish

325
00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,280
one from the other, or that reduces the

326
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,000
meaning of the whole to one at the

327
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,100
expense of the other, must always be deficient

328
00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:39,540
to the degree it fails to involve both.

329
00:15:40,370 --> 00:15:44,600
And failure to accept both in complete harmony

330
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,240
risks something more than mere deficiency.

331
00:15:48,500 --> 00:15:51,740
It also invites perversion, not just because someone

332
00:15:51,740 --> 00:15:54,500
might dislike the results, but because it tends

333
00:15:54,500 --> 00:15:57,540
to dehumanize human relationships.

334
00:15:58,300 --> 00:16:00,100
On the one hand, ways of understanding human

335
00:16:00,100 --> 00:16:04,200
sexuality that emphasize function over being lead to

336
00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:05,500
the perversion of slavery.

337
00:16:05,500 --> 00:16:10,240
Slavery is abhorrently perverted precisely because a person's

338
00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,100
inherent worth as a human being is denied,

339
00:16:13,420 --> 00:16:15,200
and he or she is valued only in

340
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:16,020
reference to function.

341
00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,600
On the other hand, understanding human sexuality in

342
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,280
a way that focuses on sexual being, while

343
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,120
ignoring or denying the importance of functional differences,

344
00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,960
leaves relational aspects of human sexual existence, fruitfulness

345
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,420
and union, shallow, barren, and eventually inoperative.

346
00:16:34,420 --> 00:16:37,880
As a result, failing to distinguish between sexual

347
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:42,580
being and function, and focusing on one at

348
00:16:42,580 --> 00:16:44,800
the expense of the other, can only lead

349
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,420
human sexual relationships into social, moral, and spiritual

350
00:16:47,420 --> 00:16:48,040
confusion.

351
00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,420
If nothing defines functional differences between male and

352
00:16:52,420 --> 00:16:56,700
female, then relationships involving gender identity are perverted

353
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,220
and quickly become a struggle for power.

354
00:17:02,140 --> 00:17:05,480
While distinguishing between sexual being and sexual function

355
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,060
helps us to guard against slavery and relational

356
00:17:08,060 --> 00:17:11,960
confusion, it also removes potential objections to the

357
00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,200
essentialist view of human sexuality.

358
00:17:14,819 --> 00:17:18,300
If we can distinguish being from function, then

359
00:17:18,300 --> 00:17:21,700
there is nothing at all inconsistent with thinking

360
00:17:21,700 --> 00:17:25,220
that sexual being may endure while functions may

361
00:17:25,220 --> 00:17:25,760
change.

362
00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:31,160
Sexual being can be something fixed, even if

363
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,580
some specific sexual function ceases, for example, the

364
00:17:34,580 --> 00:17:37,640
functions of marriage and procreation, and others might

365
00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,280
be modified, perhaps the function of headship.

366
00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,740
So now let's go on to biblical evidence

367
00:17:44,740 --> 00:17:47,960
for the doctrine that sexual being is in

368
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:49,060
fact eternally fixed.

369
00:17:49,780 --> 00:17:52,660
Having set the stage by clarifying the difference

370
00:17:52,660 --> 00:17:55,460
between sexual being and sexual function, something the

371
00:17:55,460 --> 00:17:58,860
Bible just assumes when it presents the equality

372
00:17:58,860 --> 00:18:00,520
of men and women that goes right on

373
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,300
discussing gender roles without any sense of contradiction,

374
00:18:03,860 --> 00:18:07,100
we now will consider direct evidence in the

375
00:18:07,100 --> 00:18:09,620
biblical record that lends very strong support to

376
00:18:09,620 --> 00:18:10,660
the essentialist view.

377
00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,400
Specifically, we're going to find that the gender

378
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,220
identity aspect of sexual being, the identity of

379
00:18:17,220 --> 00:18:20,000
men as men and women as women, is

380
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,800
something so profound, so very important to God,

381
00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,340
it is going to last throughout all eternity.

382
00:18:25,340 --> 00:18:28,420
And if God says the gender identity aspect

383
00:18:28,420 --> 00:18:31,160
of human sexual being is eternal, then it

384
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,980
cannot be something culturally relative or plastic.

385
00:18:34,700 --> 00:18:36,700
Instead, it must be something very real that

386
00:18:36,700 --> 00:18:39,260
must, of course, remain fixed throughout life on

387
00:18:39,260 --> 00:18:39,520
earth.

388
00:18:40,580 --> 00:18:42,480
Looking at what the Bible teaches about human

389
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,600
sexual identity and whether it will cease or

390
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,320
not is not an entirely new question.

391
00:18:47,940 --> 00:18:50,120
At least we should not think we are

392
00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:52,320
the first Christians to examine scripture for answers.

393
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,860
Augustine in the 4th century studied the question

394
00:18:55,860 --> 00:18:58,160
and he concluded from the Bible that both

395
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,120
men and women will keep their sex-specific

396
00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:03,440
gender identities beyond the resurrection and into eternity.

397
00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,580
In his case, Augustine was responding to some

398
00:19:06,580 --> 00:19:08,620
who were saying women would cease to be

399
00:19:08,620 --> 00:19:10,120
women after the resurrection.

400
00:19:10,860 --> 00:19:12,340
To quote him, there are some, he said,

401
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,000
who think that in the resurrection all will

402
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:16,700
be men and that women will lose their

403
00:19:16,700 --> 00:19:17,000
sex.

404
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:19,260
For my part, I think that those who

405
00:19:19,260 --> 00:19:21,280
believe that there will be two sexes in

406
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:22,780
the resurrection are more sensible.

407
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:24,780
End of Augustine.

408
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,220
How did Augustine reach this conclusion?

409
00:19:28,260 --> 00:19:30,580
Using Augustine's work for a guide and expanding

410
00:19:30,580 --> 00:19:33,240
upon his initial efforts, I will now lay

411
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,440
out and explain four biblically sound theological reasons

412
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,060
for asserting that God in the Bible clearly

413
00:19:39,060 --> 00:19:42,260
gives us an essentialist view of human sexuality.

414
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:44,800
Two of these reasons come from the record

415
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,300
of creation and two come from the promise

416
00:19:47,300 --> 00:19:50,520
of bodily resurrection and future eternal life in

417
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:51,820
an embodied state.

418
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,280
First, in the record of creation, we understand

419
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,660
that when God created Adam and Eve, he

420
00:19:57,660 --> 00:19:59,520
created embodied spirits.

421
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,420
God did not first create non-material beings

422
00:20:02,420 --> 00:20:05,320
and then in a second separate act place

423
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:06,720
them into material bodies.

424
00:20:07,460 --> 00:20:11,400
Rather, each was created whole in a single

425
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:12,340
act of creation.

426
00:20:12,340 --> 00:20:15,440
Thus, the being of each is presented as

427
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,360
something we might call materialized spirit.

428
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,420
In other words, the creation record teaches that

429
00:20:21,420 --> 00:20:24,340
men and women are beings who exist spiritually

430
00:20:24,340 --> 00:20:26,240
and physically at the same time.

431
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,580
Quote, God formed the man from the dust

432
00:20:29,580 --> 00:20:31,580
of the ground and breathed into his nostrils

433
00:20:31,580 --> 00:20:34,180
the breath of life and the man became

434
00:20:34,180 --> 00:20:35,320
a living being.

435
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,240
Genesis 2.7 Also, quote, the Lord God

436
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:39,940
made a woman from the rib He had

437
00:20:39,940 --> 00:20:41,400
taken out of the man and he brought

438
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:42,240
her to the man.

439
00:20:42,340 --> 00:20:45,200
Genesis 2.22 Not only is human existence

440
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,700
spiritual, it also requires embodiment in order to

441
00:20:49,700 --> 00:20:50,180
be whole.

442
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,540
So if embodiment includes sexual identity and if

443
00:20:55,540 --> 00:20:59,440
embodiment is essential to being human, then sexual

444
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,260
identity must be essential to human existence.

445
00:21:03,140 --> 00:21:06,820
Put another way, it is only logical to

446
00:21:06,820 --> 00:21:10,600
assume that because God in creation made sexual

447
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,840
identity essential to embody human life, then absent

448
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,980
specific revelation to the contrary, we must assume

449
00:21:16,980 --> 00:21:19,700
that sexual identity will always remain essential to

450
00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:21,440
embodied human existence.

451
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:26,560
Second, the Bible supports an essentialist view of

452
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,860
human sexuality because when God created Adam and

453
00:21:28,860 --> 00:21:32,060
Eve, he demonstrated the fact that human sexual

454
00:21:32,060 --> 00:21:34,620
identity has absolutely nothing to do with sin.

455
00:21:34,620 --> 00:21:37,680
Of course, what we now experience of human

456
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:42,080
sexuality certainly is affected by sinful human nature.

457
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,540
But human sexual identity has as such never

458
00:21:46,540 --> 00:21:48,860
actually depended on being sinful.

459
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,200
Indeed, Augustine saw that since Adam and Eve

460
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,160
were sexual beings before the fall, we have

461
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,080
to conclude that sinful sexual desire does not

462
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,780
have any necessary connection with what it means

463
00:22:01,780 --> 00:22:03,580
to be a sexual being.

464
00:22:03,580 --> 00:22:07,220
And because human sexuality existed without sin before

465
00:22:07,220 --> 00:22:09,600
the fall, we have no moral reason to

466
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,300
think that anything having to do with sexual

467
00:22:12,300 --> 00:22:15,160
being will be left behind when God judges

468
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,680
and does away with all moral corruption and

469
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,500
death produced by the fall, and when the

470
00:22:20,500 --> 00:22:23,900
entire created order, including human beings, is finally

471
00:22:23,900 --> 00:22:26,840
released from the curse imposed because of human

472
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:27,220
sin.

473
00:22:28,220 --> 00:22:31,900
Third, the essentialist view of human sexuality is

474
00:22:31,900 --> 00:22:35,700
presumed in the biblical hope of bodily resurrection

475
00:22:36,060 --> 00:22:40,720
because there is a promise of restorative

476
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:50,380
and not just a reconstructive

477
00:22:50,380 --> 00:22:53,640
purpose promised in bodily resurrection.

478
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,960
In the resurrection we will experience a continuity

479
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,840
of being and personal identity that links the

480
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:02,180
new with what was old.

481
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,260
We are told that we will be changed,

482
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,900
but it is we who shall be changed.

483
00:23:08,340 --> 00:23:10,300
The subject remains the subject.

484
00:23:11,140 --> 00:23:13,800
At the resurrection, quote, the perishable must clothe

485
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:18,520
itself with the imperishable and the mortal with

486
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:19,380
immortality.

487
00:23:20,220 --> 00:23:24,100
1 Corinthians 15.52.53 But here again,

488
00:23:24,540 --> 00:23:27,140
there will be those same beings who once

489
00:23:27,140 --> 00:23:30,860
were mortal who will at that time will

490
00:23:30,860 --> 00:23:32,660
clothe themselves with immortality.

491
00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:35,640
And since we know there will be continuity

492
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,760
of personal identity, and because sexuality has always

493
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,000
been part of that identity, Augustine says he

494
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,740
then who created both sexes will restore both.

495
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,900
Now what Augustine saw was that because human

496
00:23:49,900 --> 00:23:52,680
sexuality existed before the coming of mortality, Genesis

497
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,040
2.17, and the fall, Genesis 2.25,

498
00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,640
we know sexual being is not incompatible with

499
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:02,520
human life in a state of sinless perfection.

500
00:24:02,980 --> 00:24:04,120
But that is not all.

501
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,860
We also know from the record of creation

502
00:24:06,860 --> 00:24:11,880
that human sexual identity not only is sinless,

503
00:24:12,500 --> 00:24:15,640
it also is created for the purpose of

504
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,280
achieving something good.

505
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,160
In other words, it makes possible the achievement

506
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,060
of some specific good that can be achieved

507
00:24:24,060 --> 00:24:26,960
no other way, not even in the relationship

508
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,620
between human beings and God.

509
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,700
When God created the sexes and separate acts,

510
00:24:32,820 --> 00:24:37,220
he focused attention on some good thing that

511
00:24:37,220 --> 00:24:39,840
can be achieved only because human life is

512
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:41,280
sexually differentiated.

513
00:24:41,780 --> 00:24:44,020
Quote, the Lord God said, it is not

514
00:24:44,020 --> 00:24:46,180
good for man to be alone.

515
00:24:46,180 --> 00:24:48,560
I will make a helper suitable for him,

516
00:24:48,860 --> 00:24:51,580
Genesis 2.18. In this statement, God revealed

517
00:24:51,580 --> 00:24:54,100
that human sexuality not only is a good

518
00:24:54,100 --> 00:24:57,060
thing in itself, it is also for something

519
00:24:57,060 --> 00:24:57,380
good.

520
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,100
It realizes some good thing that does not

521
00:25:01,100 --> 00:25:04,840
exist apart from a relationship that consists of

522
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,860
unifying the sort of corresponding differences involved in

523
00:25:08,860 --> 00:25:09,720
human sexual identity.

524
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,580
This point adds support to the principle we

525
00:25:13,580 --> 00:25:16,660
noted earlier that absent specific revelation, to the

526
00:25:16,660 --> 00:25:18,860
contrary, we should assume that human sexual identity

527
00:25:18,860 --> 00:25:19,400
is eternal.

528
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,680
If God says human sexual identity is necessary

529
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,080
to realize something he declares good, and if

530
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,180
he reveals no reason to think any good

531
00:25:30,180 --> 00:25:33,180
thing will be left behind, then surely the

532
00:25:33,180 --> 00:25:36,960
resurrection must include the specific sort of good

533
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,360
for which God says complementary differences in human

534
00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:40,720
sexual identity are intended.

535
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,020
Of course, human sexuality might rise to some

536
00:25:45,020 --> 00:25:47,940
higher level of significance and completion, but it

537
00:25:47,940 --> 00:25:50,040
would not be logical to think that it

538
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:51,400
could ever be less.

539
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,140
It may be enhanced, but it can never

540
00:25:54,140 --> 00:25:55,680
become worth less.

541
00:25:56,860 --> 00:25:59,460
The argument that God's promise of bodily resurrection

542
00:25:59,460 --> 00:26:01,620
presumes the essential nature of human sexual identity

543
00:26:01,620 --> 00:26:05,560
has additional scriptural validation in the record of

544
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,140
those who recognize Jesus after his resurrection, and

545
00:26:09,140 --> 00:26:12,080
a special revelation of a direct link between

546
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,280
present sexual activity and the bodies we look

547
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,540
forward to having after the resurrection.

548
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,760
Following Jesus' resurrection, the disciples recognized the same

549
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,060
male human being they knew and loved before

550
00:26:24,060 --> 00:26:25,100
their crucifixion.

551
00:26:25,620 --> 00:26:28,000
Peter boldly declared that, quote, God has raised

552
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,040
this Jesus, in other words, the very same

553
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,560
man, to life, and we are all witnesses

554
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,780
of the fact, Acts 2.32. And after

555
00:26:35,780 --> 00:26:39,500
his resurrection, angels also testified to his continuing

556
00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:42,160
male identity when they said, quote, this same

557
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,700
Jesus who has been taken from you into

558
00:26:44,700 --> 00:26:46,800
heaven will come back in the same way

559
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:48,720
you have seen him go into heaven, Acts

560
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,800
1.11. These accounts suggest that all who

561
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:53,860
saw...

562
00:26:53,860 --> 00:26:59,020
These accounts rather strongly suggest that all who

563
00:26:59,020 --> 00:27:03,640
saw the resurrected Jesus after his resurrection assumed

564
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,960
that he remained a male human being.

565
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,940
But this evidence from eyewitness accounts is indirect,

566
00:27:11,820 --> 00:27:14,120
and we have direct evidence that is even

567
00:27:14,120 --> 00:27:16,720
stronger in the writing of Paul.

568
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,720
Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6.13-15,

569
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,100
the body is not meant for sexual immorality

570
00:27:25,100 --> 00:27:27,280
but for the Lord, and the Lord for

571
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:27,680
the body.

572
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,200
By his power, God raised the Lord from

573
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,200
the dead, and he will raise us also.

574
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,340
Do you not know that your bodies are

575
00:27:34,340 --> 00:27:35,480
members of Christ himself?

576
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,600
Shall I then take the members of Christ

577
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,080
and unite them with a prostitute?

578
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,020
Of course not, or never.

579
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,180
Here, by divine inspiration, Paul links sexual sin

580
00:27:49,180 --> 00:27:52,120
involving the bodies we have now with the

581
00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:54,680
moral purity that must characterize the physical bodies

582
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,000
we will have after the resurrection.

583
00:27:58,140 --> 00:28:01,220
The logical connection Paul makes between our pre

584
00:28:01,220 --> 00:28:04,420
- and post-resurrected bodies makes no sense

585
00:28:04,420 --> 00:28:08,400
unless human sexual identity continues to characterize human

586
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,040
embodiment on through the resurrection.

587
00:28:12,100 --> 00:28:14,340
Fourth and last, the essentialist view of human

588
00:28:14,340 --> 00:28:16,840
sexuality is expressed in the way Jesus answered

589
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,020
a group of Sadducees who did not believe

590
00:28:19,020 --> 00:28:21,440
in a physical resurrection and who thought they

591
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,900
could stump Jesus with a question about seven

592
00:28:23,900 --> 00:28:26,240
brothers who were each married to the same

593
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,280
woman, one after the other.

594
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,380
That's given in Matthew 22, 23-32.

595
00:28:32,140 --> 00:28:34,440
Whose wife would she be after the resurrection?

596
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,100
If human sexuality is limited just to this

597
00:28:38,100 --> 00:28:40,680
life, then Jesus would only have had to

598
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,960
explain that their question was irrelevant.

599
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,540
If sexual identity ceases after the resurrection, then

600
00:28:46,540 --> 00:28:48,900
the question is irrelevant because marriage and any

601
00:28:48,900 --> 00:28:51,720
other sort of relationship involving sexual identity will

602
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:52,800
simply be impossible.

603
00:28:54,060 --> 00:28:55,920
But Jesus didn't respond that way.

604
00:28:56,580 --> 00:29:00,080
Instead of saying that marriage relationships would become

605
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,920
irrelevant, he only said marriages would cease.

606
00:29:03,940 --> 00:29:07,920
In fact, the form of his response actually

607
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,440
underscores the continuing relevance of human sexual identity

608
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:12,160
per se.

609
00:29:13,020 --> 00:29:16,760
The form of the reply given by Jesus

610
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:18,300
is the same as though he had said

611
00:29:18,300 --> 00:29:20,680
there'll be no more toll booths in heaven.

612
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,700
That sort of answer would affirm the continuing

613
00:29:24,700 --> 00:29:28,340
presence of roads while denying the use of

614
00:29:28,340 --> 00:29:29,120
toll booths.

615
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,780
In similar fashion, what Jesus told the Sadducees

616
00:29:31,780 --> 00:29:35,380
affirms the continuity of human sexual identity while

617
00:29:35,380 --> 00:29:37,860
denying the practice of marriage as a human

618
00:29:37,860 --> 00:29:38,600
institution.

619
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,160
Augustine, who was arguing against some who thought

620
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,440
female sexual identity might cease, said, quote, Jesus

621
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,340
even affirmed that the sex, i.e., female

622
00:29:50,340 --> 00:29:53,720
human sexual identity, should exist by saying they

623
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,260
shall not be given in marriage, which can

624
00:29:56,260 --> 00:29:57,520
only apply to females.

625
00:29:58,100 --> 00:30:00,200
Neither shall they marry, which applies only to

626
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:00,520
males.

627
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,420
There shall, therefore, i.e., after resurrection, be

628
00:30:03,420 --> 00:30:06,300
those who are in this world accustomed to

629
00:30:06,300 --> 00:30:08,880
marry and being given in marriage.

630
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,240
Only they shall there make no such marriages.

631
00:30:13,540 --> 00:30:18,080
Final section talking about plastic sexuality now and

632
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,920
the egalitarian position building of what we have

633
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:22,220
just considered.

634
00:30:22,980 --> 00:30:25,140
We have considered a new way of thinking

635
00:30:25,140 --> 00:30:27,600
that's now emerging in our culture that promotes

636
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,620
the idea that human sexual identity is not

637
00:30:30,620 --> 00:30:33,860
fixed but is instead malleable or plastic.

638
00:30:33,860 --> 00:30:36,240
I, in turn, have argued that Christians must

639
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,000
prepare to resist such thinking by studying reasons

640
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:40,800
in the Bible for believing that human sexual

641
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,580
identity is something so deeply profound and important

642
00:30:43,580 --> 00:30:46,300
to God it will last through eternity and

643
00:30:46,300 --> 00:30:48,140
if it is eternal, then it certainly cannot

644
00:30:48,140 --> 00:30:49,800
be culturally relative or plastic.

645
00:30:50,620 --> 00:30:52,900
I have also noted how the idea of

646
00:30:52,900 --> 00:30:57,160
plastic sexuality reconfigures sexual ethics and is especially

647
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:58,540
opposed to gender roles.

648
00:30:59,500 --> 00:31:01,180
And in doing this, I have also pointed

649
00:31:01,180 --> 00:31:03,880
out how egalitarians and the advocates of plastic

650
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,880
sexuality share a common view of equality one

651
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,860
that fails to distinguish between sexual being and

652
00:31:09,860 --> 00:31:10,900
sexual functions.

653
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,600
As we close, I will add some comments

654
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,580
about similarities I see and about which I

655
00:31:17,580 --> 00:31:20,740
think we should all be deeply concerned between

656
00:31:20,740 --> 00:31:22,820
egalitarian teaching in the Church on the one

657
00:31:22,820 --> 00:31:25,680
hand and the promotion of plastic sexuality in

658
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,100
the culture on the other.

659
00:31:28,100 --> 00:31:31,720
In view of a biblical doctrine concerning the

660
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,960
eternally fixed nature of human sexual identity promotion

661
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,820
of plastic sexuality amounts to a wager that

662
00:31:37,820 --> 00:31:39,920
erases sexual boundaries at the cost of real

663
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:40,940
significance and meaning.

664
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,600
It promises freedom from moral limitations at the

665
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,580
price of perpetual shallowness.

666
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,200
And although Christian egalitarians continue to proclaim faith

667
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,900
in the authority of Scripture and although they

668
00:31:53,900 --> 00:31:57,900
have never been so extreme as those who

669
00:31:57,900 --> 00:32:01,760
openly espouse plastic sexuality the egalitarian position takes

670
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,020
on this same wager.

671
00:32:03,820 --> 00:32:07,700
Egalitarians also sacrifice the meaning of sexual difference

672
00:32:07,700 --> 00:32:09,940
for the sake of monolithic sameness.

673
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,700
The idea of plastic sexuality with its ethical

674
00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:17,580
ramifications is really the inevitable result of humanistic

675
00:32:17,580 --> 00:32:20,880
thinking when thinking about sexual identity is cut

676
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,660
off from objectively defined boundaries as to function

677
00:32:24,660 --> 00:32:25,500
or purpose.

678
00:32:26,100 --> 00:32:28,340
If the meaning and definition of human sexual

679
00:32:28,340 --> 00:32:31,480
identity is intentionally severed from any fixed reference

680
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,000
and is subject only to arbitrary personal choice

681
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,520
we should not be surprised when advocates claim

682
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,180
that human sexuality is arbitrary.

683
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,200
Ironically, the idea of plastic sexuality involves a

684
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,980
profound commitment to thinking there can be nothing

685
00:32:45,980 --> 00:32:47,540
profound about sexual identity.

686
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,800
Plastic sexuality is sex without fixed purpose which

687
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,980
means it is also sex without moral limits

688
00:32:55,980 --> 00:32:59,220
other than the one requirement that every moral

689
00:32:59,220 --> 00:33:01,900
standard be deconstructed or rejected.

690
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:07,240
Christian egalitarians still say that human sexuality has

691
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,960
purpose but they so reconstruct what they say

692
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,480
of its purpose the idea of sexual difference

693
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:14,920
is made completely irrelevant.

694
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,260
For example, egalitarian Stanley Grenz writes that, quote,

695
00:33:19,340 --> 00:33:21,800
the basic purpose of our existence as sexual

696
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,940
creatures is related to the dynamic of bonding

697
00:33:24,940 --> 00:33:27,600
and he claims the main problem for which

698
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,280
E was created to be a solution was

699
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,520
Adam's, quote, unquote, solitude.

700
00:33:32,340 --> 00:33:36,640
But relational bonding and human companionship or friendship

701
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,720
do not require the reality of sexual difference.

702
00:33:40,300 --> 00:33:42,520
Defined this way, human sexuality can fulfill its

703
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,240
purpose whether sexual difference is present or not.

704
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,580
Thus for egalitarians, sexual difference is marginalized to

705
00:33:49,580 --> 00:33:50,940
the point of meaninglessness.

706
00:33:52,140 --> 00:33:55,160
And so, in this way, egalitarians end up

707
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,640
arguing for a position not so very different

708
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,500
from that taken by the advocates of plastic

709
00:34:00,500 --> 00:34:01,100
sexuality.

710
00:34:02,220 --> 00:34:05,860
Whether it is social scientists advocating plastic sexuality

711
00:34:05,860 --> 00:34:11,600
or Christian theologians defending egalitarianism both are beguiled

712
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,239
by a vision of sexual equality, quote, unquote

713
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:19,340
that has no place for meaningful distinctions within

714
00:34:19,340 --> 00:34:21,179
human sexual identity.

715
00:34:21,780 --> 00:34:24,800
Both pursue a vision of equality that rejects

716
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,719
the concept of complementary equality.

717
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,659
Neither allows a sort of equality that has

718
00:34:32,659 --> 00:34:36,120
room for corresponding sexual differences that do not

719
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,739
compromise the equal value of sexual being.

720
00:34:39,540 --> 00:34:42,239
Both insist on an idea of equality that

721
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:46,239
focuses exclusively on monolithic sameness.

722
00:34:46,860 --> 00:34:49,500
But if gender differences within human sexual identity

723
00:34:49,500 --> 00:34:52,920
really do not matter if in fact what

724
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,880
we think are differences are actually just transitory,

725
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,560
cultural, or perhaps even unreal then the idea

726
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,320
of difference based on separate sexual gender identities

727
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,780
can sustain no real moral value either.

728
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,760
Then the idea that gender based sexual differences

729
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,720
sustain or define any sort of normative behavior

730
00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:18,060
have to be rejected and perhaps even vilified.

731
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,540
So, it turns out, a way of thinking

732
00:35:21,540 --> 00:35:24,960
that leads egalitarians to reject gender roles is

733
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,160
the same process of thought used by advocates

734
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,340
of plastic sexuality to deny there is anything

735
00:35:30,340 --> 00:35:32,300
normative to heterosexual marriage.

736
00:35:33,300 --> 00:35:37,400
Defense for or opposition to convictions about the

737
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,440
reality of enduring meaningful difference in human sexual

738
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,620
identity is one so profound it can define

739
00:35:45,620 --> 00:35:49,620
and sustain normative moral relations between men as

740
00:35:49,620 --> 00:35:50,780
men and women as women.

741
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,580
This lies at the center of a colossal

742
00:35:54,580 --> 00:35:59,040
social, ethical, and ultimately religious struggle now straining

743
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:00,220
American life and culture.

744
00:36:00,220 --> 00:36:05,060
If the idea of fixed permanent differences in

745
00:36:05,060 --> 00:36:09,120
human sexual identity is ultimately unreal then the

746
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,840
God of the Bible is a deceiver and

747
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,820
the perpetrator of enormous evil.

748
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,700
But, if sexual differences are fixed and real

749
00:36:18,700 --> 00:36:22,340
then the God of Scripture is true and

750
00:36:22,340 --> 00:36:25,560
teachers in the church must stand their ground

751
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,600
against the cultural tide no matter what the

752
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:28,980
cost.

753
00:36:28,980 --> 00:36:34,220
Scripture cannot be interpreted to accommodate plastic sexuality

754
00:36:34,220 --> 00:36:37,400
and there is no place for plastic sexuality

755
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,640
in the teaching of the church.

756
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:40,760
Thank you.

757
00:36:41,580 --> 00:36:42,540
All right.

758
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,860
I appreciate your listening.

759
00:36:48,100 --> 00:36:50,040
We have some time now for discussion and

760
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:50,480
questions.

761
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:52,500
Phil, how much time exactly do we have?

762
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:54,340
Twenty minutes.

763
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:54,720
Okay.

764
00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:58,100
I hope I can come out from behind

765
00:36:58,100 --> 00:37:00,820
the lectern and respond a bit more informally

766
00:37:00,820 --> 00:37:01,220
to you.

767
00:37:02,420 --> 00:37:04,960
Do you have any comments yourself or any

768
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:05,420
questions?

769
00:37:05,940 --> 00:37:08,340
Please, if you would, state your name when

770
00:37:08,340 --> 00:37:08,860
you do so.

771
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,100
Well, the point is that obviously we are

772
00:37:14,100 --> 00:37:14,840
men and women.

773
00:37:15,620 --> 00:37:19,080
Whatever gender identity we are we are as

774
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:20,480
fully human as each other.

775
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:25,140
And I have written elsewhere and Bruce Ware

776
00:37:25,140 --> 00:37:27,660
is giving a presentation right now in the

777
00:37:27,660 --> 00:37:31,040
room next door on male and female image

778
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:31,540
of God.

779
00:37:32,180 --> 00:37:34,620
And he would argue and I would argue

780
00:37:34,620 --> 00:37:39,600
that men and women, that gender difference is

781
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,700
irrelevant to the degree to which we bear

782
00:37:43,700 --> 00:37:44,300
the image of God.

783
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:45,840
That we bear the image of God fully

784
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:50,160
and equally and not just equally in the

785
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,180
sense of equal value but equally in the

786
00:37:53,180 --> 00:37:54,400
sense of the same way.

787
00:37:54,500 --> 00:37:55,280
That's where I would argue.

788
00:37:55,700 --> 00:37:57,720
That we bear the image of God the

789
00:37:57,720 --> 00:37:59,660
same way and completely and fully.

790
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,460
Irrelevant or irrespective of whether we're male or

791
00:38:03,460 --> 00:38:03,880
female.

792
00:38:05,140 --> 00:38:09,400
But that what I'm distinguishing between being and

793
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:10,560
that's a matter of being.

794
00:38:11,540 --> 00:38:17,440
But distinguishing being and function that the gender

795
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:21,300
identity is something that is essentially related.

796
00:38:23,300 --> 00:38:24,580
Essentially connected.

797
00:38:24,780 --> 00:38:31,280
That is, you cease to be human human

798
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:32,740
beings as God has created you if you

799
00:38:32,740 --> 00:38:33,960
cease to be a sexual being.

800
00:38:34,980 --> 00:38:38,680
And you cease to have your specific gender

801
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,760
identity either as male or female.

802
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,180
That there is no such category as being

803
00:38:45,180 --> 00:38:48,160
human and not being either male or female.

804
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:50,340
Okay?

805
00:38:51,300 --> 00:38:54,680
I don't want to go into the animal

806
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,300
life thing because there are certainly forms of

807
00:38:56,300 --> 00:38:58,780
animals and so forth that there isn't sexual

808
00:38:58,780 --> 00:39:00,880
distinction or they switch back and forth and

809
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:01,660
all that sort of stuff.

810
00:39:03,180 --> 00:39:05,020
But I'd like to stay on the biblical

811
00:39:05,020 --> 00:39:05,500
ground.

812
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,080
And I do think human life is unique.

813
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:11,000
Yes?

814
00:39:12,180 --> 00:39:14,900
Is it a strategy question you're asking or

815
00:39:14,900 --> 00:39:16,320
a process question?

816
00:39:16,500 --> 00:39:16,640
Yeah.

817
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,240
Very good question.

818
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,240
First of all, let me just challenge the

819
00:39:21,240 --> 00:39:24,000
premise that it is a feminist culture.

820
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,900
Now, obviously, well, first of all, feminism isn't

821
00:39:27,900 --> 00:39:29,400
a monolithic thing.

822
00:39:29,460 --> 00:39:31,380
There are many different ideas that sort of

823
00:39:31,380 --> 00:39:33,300
get, and everybody isn't buying everything.

824
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:39,160
But neither is Washington or the culture are

825
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:43,060
completely overrun with the full ramifications of feminism.

826
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,680
So there are going to be, I think

827
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,560
the challenge would be whatever the context with

828
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:53,160
whom you might be relating to sort of

829
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,060
identify where they are.

830
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,660
Certainly there are, just in terms of public

831
00:40:00,660 --> 00:40:07,080
life, in the introduction, Tim Berry just mentioned

832
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,160
the issue of women in combat.

833
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:17,600
The great majority of people in Washington, political

834
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:23,300
people or folks that might be on staff

835
00:40:23,300 --> 00:40:27,700
or whatever, but I think probably the vast

836
00:40:27,700 --> 00:40:30,000
majority of people in America and in other

837
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,840
walks of life, I think still view that

838
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:35,680
as, this is radical.

839
00:40:35,900 --> 00:40:39,200
This is something, there's something different about women

840
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,280
that ought not to be erased, and they

841
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:42,900
were crossing some sort of a line here.

842
00:40:43,620 --> 00:40:46,460
It is the last bastion of public life

843
00:40:46,460 --> 00:40:50,780
that is, for which the government, you know,

844
00:40:50,820 --> 00:40:53,440
managing the affairs and directing and disciplining and

845
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,840
defining relationships and so forth, standards of behavior,

846
00:40:58,940 --> 00:41:04,380
that is specifically a government responsibility, that military

847
00:41:04,380 --> 00:41:06,100
life is sort of the last bastion of

848
00:41:06,100 --> 00:41:07,820
what we call traditional moral values.

849
00:41:08,700 --> 00:41:11,180
And it's precisely because of that that the

850
00:41:11,180 --> 00:41:12,280
feminists can't leave it alone.

851
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,200
That's why they're attacking it right now.

852
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,820
And tremendous things are at stake if that

853
00:41:20,820 --> 00:41:23,420
is lost and I think ground is being

854
00:41:23,420 --> 00:41:27,440
lost, but it's also the easiest to defend

855
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:28,540
and argue against.

856
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:29,820
We just need people with backbone who are

857
00:41:29,820 --> 00:41:30,900
willing to stand up and argue.

858
00:41:32,660 --> 00:41:37,180
Because it really, most women don't really want

859
00:41:37,720 --> 00:41:40,320
to be drafted, you know, be treated as

860
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,820
though their sexual identity is completely irrelevant, so

861
00:41:43,820 --> 00:41:45,320
they ought to be subject to a draft,

862
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:49,220
taken away from their family responsibilities, deployed worldwide

863
00:41:49,220 --> 00:41:52,020
on a moment's notice, and so forth like

864
00:41:52,020 --> 00:41:53,220
this, which is what you're supposed to be

865
00:41:53,220 --> 00:41:55,940
in the military, if you're in the military

866
00:41:55,940 --> 00:41:56,440
profession.

867
00:41:57,860 --> 00:41:59,240
They want to be able to choose it,

868
00:41:59,260 --> 00:42:00,900
but they don't want to be able to

869
00:42:00,900 --> 00:42:03,940
be forced to go in voluntarily, which is

870
00:42:03,940 --> 00:42:06,680
what you would do and so forth.

871
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,160
So they'd like to view it as a

872
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,160
job, but they don't want to view it

873
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:12,860
as a matter of personal sacrifice.

874
00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:18,300
And of course, anyone who understands the military

875
00:42:18,300 --> 00:42:26,740
culture, its effectiveness, unit cohesion, military discipline, depends

876
00:42:26,740 --> 00:42:32,380
very much on building very intense loyalties with

877
00:42:32,380 --> 00:42:33,580
the other people in your unit.

878
00:42:34,540 --> 00:42:37,540
Bonding, in that sense, which is a fraternal,

879
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:38,840
type of fraternal love.

880
00:42:39,980 --> 00:42:41,860
Men usually, you know, men in combat die

881
00:42:41,860 --> 00:42:42,560
for their buddies.

882
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:44,720
They don't really die for their country.

883
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:46,260
It's too abstract.

884
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:47,860
They don't want to let their buddies down.

885
00:42:47,860 --> 00:42:49,860
They don't, you know, who are counting on

886
00:42:49,860 --> 00:42:49,980
them.

887
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,220
And so that's, you know, that's what ends

888
00:42:52,220 --> 00:42:54,980
up being the most basic thing that keeps

889
00:42:54,980 --> 00:42:59,060
units together from fracturing and splitting up.

890
00:43:00,140 --> 00:43:05,200
If you start putting sexual tensions into that

891
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:09,500
mix, it destroys it.

892
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,720
You create jealousies, you create rivalries, you create,

893
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,860
you know, you avoid, you know, you have

894
00:43:17,860 --> 00:43:22,420
intimacy is possible between, you know, where there's

895
00:43:22,420 --> 00:43:25,980
no sexual interest involved, possible in a way

896
00:43:25,980 --> 00:43:27,660
that builds fraternal love.

897
00:43:27,900 --> 00:43:30,460
But you start creating, you know, sexual interest

898
00:43:30,460 --> 00:43:31,900
and all of a sudden you've got to

899
00:43:31,900 --> 00:43:32,420
keep your distance.

900
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,700
You've got to create a private space and

901
00:43:34,700 --> 00:43:34,940
so forth.

902
00:43:34,980 --> 00:43:37,240
That interferes with the kind of, with trust

903
00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:37,780
relationship.

904
00:43:38,340 --> 00:43:40,860
And suddenly somebody's unique and somebody else is

905
00:43:40,860 --> 00:43:41,920
not and so forth like this.

906
00:43:42,060 --> 00:43:47,620
It destroys the most basic foundation of building

907
00:43:47,620 --> 00:43:48,980
effective military combat game.

908
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:52,620
And everybody knows this who's in the military.

909
00:43:53,340 --> 00:43:55,480
You can't pretend that sexual differences don't matter,

910
00:43:55,540 --> 00:43:56,700
just have strong rules.

911
00:43:56,820 --> 00:43:57,340
It doesn't work.

912
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:03,200
If you try to make it work, it's

913
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:03,440
foolish.

914
00:44:04,980 --> 00:44:06,860
Well, business environments are going to be a

915
00:44:06,860 --> 00:44:09,080
bit different and so forth.

916
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:13,480
Another, I think another way that we have

917
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:19,260
into the culture is exactly what this conference

918
00:44:19,260 --> 00:44:20,660
is about and it's family life.

919
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:23,440
You know, even the ones who sort of

920
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:27,960
try to have these egalitarian marriages where, you

921
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,720
know, sexual difference doesn't matter don't really live

922
00:44:31,720 --> 00:44:32,200
that way.

923
00:44:32,900 --> 00:44:34,420
You know, somebody's got to make the decisions.

924
00:44:34,780 --> 00:44:36,340
Somebody's got to be finally responsible.

925
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:38,480
Somebody's got to give direction or the two

926
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:39,180
are going to stay together.

927
00:44:41,810 --> 00:44:46,230
Well, the idea that it's the way you're

928
00:44:46,230 --> 00:44:48,830
born, it's fixed, it's innate and so forth

929
00:44:49,430 --> 00:44:51,590
is really a rhetorical ploy.

930
00:44:52,750 --> 00:44:54,870
If you talk to the homosexual advocates, that's

931
00:44:54,870 --> 00:44:55,210
not real.

932
00:44:55,390 --> 00:45:01,010
That's just to persuade the heterosexual public to

933
00:45:01,010 --> 00:45:01,830
come their way.

934
00:45:02,810 --> 00:45:05,250
What they really want is free choice no

935
00:45:05,250 --> 00:45:05,950
matter what it is.

936
00:45:07,350 --> 00:45:10,590
And to, you know, this is the next

937
00:45:10,590 --> 00:45:11,550
step beyond that.

938
00:45:12,650 --> 00:45:14,530
And they'll admit it if you get them

939
00:45:14,530 --> 00:45:18,960
in a private moment, the leaders.

940
00:45:21,190 --> 00:45:22,230
It's just a way to get the laws

941
00:45:22,230 --> 00:45:23,510
changed so they can go the next step

942
00:45:23,510 --> 00:45:23,990
beyond that.

943
00:45:25,670 --> 00:45:31,310
I mean, you had in the 1990, was

944
00:45:31,310 --> 00:45:37,840
it 1995, 1996, March on Washington, 1995 March

945
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,880
on Washington, you know, when Clinton was first

946
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:48,820
elected that you had groups marching down Pennsylvania

947
00:45:48,820 --> 00:45:52,460
Avenue chanting recruit, recruit, recruit.

948
00:45:54,380 --> 00:45:55,640
Does that make any sense?

949
00:45:56,180 --> 00:45:57,860
If it's innate and it's not a choice?

950
00:45:59,100 --> 00:46:01,400
How can you recruit if it's something you

951
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,040
can't help and it's no choice?

952
00:46:06,220 --> 00:46:08,280
They know it's not about innate.

953
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:14,060
For them, it removes the moral barriers.

954
00:46:14,220 --> 00:46:15,420
I get to choose and make up whatever

955
00:46:15,420 --> 00:46:15,820
I want.

956
00:46:17,540 --> 00:46:18,480
Any new light?

957
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:20,020
There never has been any light on it,

958
00:46:20,060 --> 00:46:20,580
I don't think.

959
00:46:21,140 --> 00:46:22,420
There's a lot of effort to confuse it.

960
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,860
There is a huge body of scientific evidence

961
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,300
that is not being focused on by the

962
00:46:34,300 --> 00:46:37,320
media and being ignored in the public statements

963
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:38,640
even of a lot of scientists who are

964
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:44,140
being intimidated by the homosexual agenda that is

965
00:46:44,140 --> 00:46:48,500
on the side of understanding homosexuality as pathological

966
00:46:48,500 --> 00:46:49,840
and deviant.

967
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:57,160
That it is by and large an acquired

968
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,660
condition.

969
00:47:01,100 --> 00:47:02,920
Sometimes that might be a matter of your

970
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:03,780
own personal responsibility.

971
00:47:03,900 --> 00:47:06,540
It might be because of abuse and other

972
00:47:06,540 --> 00:47:07,040
sorts of things.

973
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:10,000
It doesn't necessarily mean that the person who

974
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:19,760
is struggling with that is completely responsible

975
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,680
for the position that they're in.

976
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:24,760
What they do about it, certainly, is their

977
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:25,340
responsibility.

978
00:47:26,140 --> 00:47:29,700
But, for instance, there is all sorts of

979
00:47:29,700 --> 00:47:35,620
evidence that shows that the rate or incidence

980
00:47:35,620 --> 00:47:41,700
of homosexuality varies tremendously, very significantly, according to

981
00:47:41,700 --> 00:47:48,700
education, according to religion, according to culture.

982
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:56,620
That's impossible if you're dealing with biologically fixed

983
00:47:56,620 --> 00:47:58,680
features.

984
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:06,520
Race, education, these things would be, let's take

985
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:06,900
race.

986
00:48:07,900 --> 00:48:09,280
This is biologically fixed.

987
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:13,080
It doesn't matter what your culture or what

988
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,060
your education or what your religion is.

989
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,820
It's not going to change your race.

990
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:22,260
It's an irrelevant category.

991
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:29,020
But with the incidence of homosexuality, it's something

992
00:48:29,020 --> 00:48:36,060
that varies hugely with these things, which would

993
00:48:36,060 --> 00:48:39,140
say that it's primarily a matter of conditioned

994
00:48:39,140 --> 00:48:40,880
behavior.

995
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:43,220
Primarily.

996
00:48:45,610 --> 00:48:47,070
Well, it's very much a part of the

997
00:48:47,070 --> 00:48:47,870
homosexual agenda.

998
00:48:47,950 --> 00:48:49,190
It's part of the feminist agenda, too.

999
00:48:49,950 --> 00:48:52,510
And what I'm pointing out here is that

1000
00:48:52,510 --> 00:48:55,970
it's at the core, it's at the center

1001
00:48:55,970 --> 00:48:57,730
of what the egalitarians deny.

1002
00:48:58,470 --> 00:49:00,410
I mean, there's a direct connection here.

1003
00:49:01,150 --> 00:49:04,810
Denying the sexual difference has any true meaning.

1004
00:49:06,090 --> 00:49:08,470
In the name of a sort of equality

1005
00:49:08,470 --> 00:49:13,210
that is monolithic sameness and no place for

1006
00:49:13,210 --> 00:49:19,700
difference, sexual difference in the back.

1007
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:24,340
Well, you probably best talk with a medical

1008
00:49:24,340 --> 00:49:28,860
expert in that field because certainly there are

1009
00:49:28,860 --> 00:49:32,620
biological abnormalities and so forth like that.

1010
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,660
But usually it's primarily, I don't know, in

1011
00:49:36,660 --> 00:49:39,160
all cases, it's usually primarily one thing or

1012
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:39,500
the other.

1013
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:45,280
And what you want to do is try

1014
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:50,880
to define it as best you could in

1015
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,480
a corrective way so that it's definitely one

1016
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:54,840
or the other.

1017
00:49:55,060 --> 00:49:58,000
Now, possibly someone could make a mistake.

1018
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:04,920
But those cases are very, very rare and

1019
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:14,400
it's never wise to make general moral norms

1020
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:19,800
on very rare circumstances which are obviously exceptional.

1021
00:50:21,060 --> 00:50:25,100
Exceptions are by definition not the norm.

1022
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:28,960
Yeah.

1023
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:34,760
Their response, well, their agenda is to dismiss

1024
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:40,880
those as either reinterpret, reconstruct them, redefine them

1025
00:50:41,820 --> 00:50:43,460
and to do so in a way that

1026
00:50:43,460 --> 00:50:45,260
says that those things are conditioned.

1027
00:50:45,460 --> 00:50:46,640
They aren't naturally that way.

1028
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,240
It's the culture that teaches girls to play

1029
00:50:51,240 --> 00:50:52,420
with dolls and the boys to play with

1030
00:50:52,420 --> 00:50:53,360
guns and that sort of thing.

1031
00:50:56,110 --> 00:50:59,030
They say even the physical differences are just

1032
00:50:59,030 --> 00:51:01,090
really not real.

1033
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:05,860
I'm not going to defend them.

1034
00:51:05,860 --> 00:51:12,100
But it's so radical to the point that

1035
00:51:12,100 --> 00:51:14,040
they even want to try to deny that

1036
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:15,260
physical differences aren't real.

1037
00:51:17,460 --> 00:51:19,620
Now, we have about, actually, I might want

1038
00:51:19,620 --> 00:51:20,620
to watch about eight minutes more.

1039
00:51:21,140 --> 00:51:22,360
Let me just make a comment here.

1040
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:24,180
We might have time for one more question

1041
00:51:24,180 --> 00:51:24,540
after that.

1042
00:51:27,260 --> 00:51:31,640
But coming back to the difference between egalitarians

1043
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:35,860
and complementarians, those who teach in the church

1044
00:51:35,860 --> 00:51:40,260
and study the Bible, interpret the Bible, those

1045
00:51:40,260 --> 00:51:43,260
who, like Stanley Grintz, who is an egalitarian,

1046
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:47,960
argue that there are no gender roles in

1047
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,480
the Bible, and those who are complementarians argue

1048
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:51,300
that there are.

1049
00:51:52,660 --> 00:51:55,820
What has impressed me and concerns me very

1050
00:51:55,820 --> 00:51:58,640
deeply and really is the reason for this

1051
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:06,380
particular presentation is that egalitarians will not admit

1052
00:52:06,380 --> 00:52:10,160
any place for meaningful sexual difference.

1053
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,280
It's not to say, well, under these circumstances,

1054
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:15,020
but nowhere.

1055
00:52:16,720 --> 00:52:20,720
It's that the difference doesn't matter anywhere.

1056
00:52:21,900 --> 00:52:23,020
Just give me a little ground.

1057
00:52:23,420 --> 00:52:24,840
It doesn't matter anywhere at all?

1058
00:52:24,940 --> 00:52:26,380
No, it doesn't matter anywhere at all.

1059
00:52:27,180 --> 00:52:28,640
Well, in that case, what are you saying?

1060
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:31,960
It really destroys marriage.

1061
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:33,400
In the name of sort of, this is

1062
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:37,940
sort of resultant, better marriages, because they argue

1063
00:52:37,940 --> 00:52:41,180
that if you believe that men should be

1064
00:52:41,180 --> 00:52:43,080
the head of the house and these things,

1065
00:52:43,340 --> 00:52:45,140
that that turns people into bullies and they're

1066
00:52:45,140 --> 00:52:47,440
nasty and they start beating their wives.

1067
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:52,380
And so you've got to be egalitarian in

1068
00:52:52,380 --> 00:52:53,440
order to have a good marriage.

1069
00:52:53,820 --> 00:52:56,260
That's just foolishness.

1070
00:52:58,370 --> 00:53:00,030
Not yet, but I'd be happy to put

1071
00:53:00,030 --> 00:53:00,550
it on there.

1072
00:53:00,990 --> 00:53:02,090
They're probably going to ask me that as

1073
00:53:02,090 --> 00:53:02,490
soon as we finish.

1074
00:53:03,410 --> 00:53:03,790
Right, David?

1075
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:06,600
Okay.

1076
00:53:09,460 --> 00:53:09,940
All right.

1077
00:53:12,990 --> 00:53:13,930
Well, thank you very much.

1078
00:53:14,070 --> 00:53:14,570
Oh, one more.

1079
00:53:15,590 --> 00:53:15,830
Yeah.

1080
00:53:17,690 --> 00:53:21,630
The basic reality, the reality doesn't, they want

1081
00:53:21,630 --> 00:53:22,490
to redefine reality.

1082
00:53:24,540 --> 00:53:30,520
And so they're very interested in artificial semination.

1083
00:53:32,980 --> 00:53:35,120
They're really excited about the idea of cloning.

1084
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,420
It would make sex irrelevant and that would

1085
00:53:39,420 --> 00:53:42,980
just help them get rid of, you know,

1086
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:44,620
sex-based gender roles.

1087
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:46,200
That'd be wonderful.

1088
00:53:46,340 --> 00:53:49,910
See, look, we can, yeah.

1089
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:54,420
It would just be recreational, that's it, yeah.

1090
00:53:54,940 --> 00:53:57,040
And however you do it, and you can,

1091
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,420
you know, reshape it, whatever.