The following interview was originally recorded for the
Purity for Life radio broadcast.
For additional interviews with Steve Gallagher and podcasts
of the Purity for Life program, visit our
website at PureLifeMinistries.org.
Steve, as we continue our discussion about your
book, Intoxicated with Babylon, we're talking today about
the command from God, be holy as I
am holy.
A.W. Tozer said, we have learned to
live with unholiness and have come to look
upon it as the natural and expected thing.
Now, you talk about in your book, looking
back into the 1900s, that holiness really used
to be the expected thing.
T.O. There was a time in the
church when there was such a biblical standard
amongst God's people that there was almost like
a peer pressure to live a godly and
holy life.
There just were things that you didn't do,
you know, you didn't go out drinking or
dancing or, you know, even things that we
consider normal nowadays, like wearing makeup or jewelry,
things like that.
But there were just things that Christians knew
were not appropriate, and it was understood across
the entire church world that this was the
way it was.
And that had an impact, even though you're
talking about how it was in the church,
that had an impact all across our culture.
You look at 1940s America, where there was
still a significant influence towards at least some
level of morality because of what the church
believed and practiced.
I believe because of the level of consecration
that was in the church in those days,
that there was still a great deal of
spiritual power at work in our country.
But as that level of holiness has dissipated
over the last 50, 60 years, so also
has the power to go with it.
Well, Steve, whatever happened to that concept of
holiness in the church then?
I believe there's a couple of different factors
that have come into play.
First of all, theologically, some people took exception
to that term.
I know that there were those who, under
the name of holiness, took it to extremes,
you know, to where they lived a rigid
lifestyle and so on and were very legalistic.
But that was really a very small portion
of those who were trying to live a
holy life before God.
For the most part, most Christians who were
endeavoring to live a holy life were doing
it with a sincere heart and an earnest
desire to live a godly life.
But some people took an exception to that
and over time they were able to demonize
the term holiness in much the same way
the liberal press has demonized the term abstinence
in our day.
You know, so now it's almost a term
that is politically incorrect within the church.
You just don't hear about holiness anymore.
And that's a terrible tragedy amongst God's people.
The other thing that came into play was
simply television and all the other different things
that lured Christians into the world.
And you know, that in itself caused that
separation from the world to disintegrate until, you
know, really the church has become just one
step away from the world.
Well, Steve, regardless of our current understanding of
holiness, which obviously based on what you've said
is limited or whether it's in vogue or
out of vogue, the fact still remains, doesn't
it, that holiness is still a central requirement
of being a true believer?
Absolutely.
You know, as you mentioned, God said, you
shall be holy for I am holy.
And the book of Hebrews even says, without
holiness, no one will see the Lord.
And we have to ask ourselves if we
really believe what the Bible says.
You know, we have so watered it down
and just kind of ignored statements that are
very clear-cut commandments because we don't want
to live by them.
So we've just kind of in our minds
created a different gospel that is without any
requirements or expectations from this holy God.
And the problem with that is that when
we stand before this holy God, all of
that is going to be shown for what
it really is.
Well, Steve, before we get into a discussion
about how we achieve holiness or how we
pursue holiness in our lives, perhaps we should
just stop here and define what it is.
What is holiness?
Let me say what holiness isn't, first of
all.
Holiness is not sinless perfection.
When we're talking about holiness, we're talking about
a spiritual condition where a person has become
consecrated to the Lord to such a degree
that he has an intimate, vibrant relationship with
Jesus Christ, that there is no outward, ongoing
sin in his life, that there is no
attachment to the world, that there is a
true flow of God's love through his life.
I think that that describes what holiness is.
I wonder, Steve, if one of the reasons
that we have kind of discarded the concept
of holiness is because when we hear things
like that, there is no sin.
We just can't meet up to that.
Yeah, you know, if someone gets that idea
in their mind that God is demanding sinless
perfection, then it can be overwhelming and demoralizing,
and the person just feels like, what's the
point?
There's no way I can ever arrive at
that place.
But that really isn't what God expects.
So really, is it right to say, then,
that holiness is something that God wants us
to be pursuing?
Yes, holiness is something that we're pursuing, and
the Bible uses the term sanctification to describe
that process whereby God is extracting the sin
and the selfishness and the pride out of
our inner being and replacing it with his
person.
And as that exchange is going on, there
is a growing in this process of becoming
holy.
I guess you could say it this way,
Mike, that holiness is the goal, and sanctification
is the process to lead us to that
goal.
So, the pursuit of holiness really is just
simply the process of sanctification.
Steve, you said in your book that separating
oneself from the world does not necessarily bring
a person into holiness.
It puts that believer in a position of
being made holy.
Can you explain what you mean by that?
Well, we all know about these different groups
that are completely separated from the outside, you
know, like the Amish and some Mennonite groups
and so on, German Baptist groups, where they
are a community unto themselves and there are
no connections with the outside world or very,
very little.
But that does not make you a holy
person, you know, and I have been around
some of these folks and there is like
a refreshing innocence because of that separation.
But the separation is unto God.
It's not enough to just be disconnected from
the carnal world around us.
We have to be connected to the Holy
Spirit, to Jesus Christ, and that is what
true holiness is.
Steve, one of the great misunderstandings that you
talk about is this idea that holiness is
a transactional thing, that it's just going to
happen automatically.
When I die, the Lord's just going to
make me holy.
What place does actual holy living play into
our preparation for the end of our life
in this world?
That concept that you just mentioned has been
propagated over the years by those who are
seemingly frantically trying to maintain their life in
this world, you know, feel no expectation from
God to change and so on.
And so they've kind of devised this entire
scenario where they can just live like a
devil, basically, and then one day they die
and go to heaven because they said a
prayer and went forward at an altar call
one time.
And that is decidedly not what the New
Testament teaches.
It is very, very clear in Scripture that
we are being, first of all, tested during
our time here in the sense that we're
going to prove out where our heart lies,
you know, and the reality of our commitment
to Christ.
And secondly, that we are also being prepared
for the eternal life, that we are being
trained on this earth to be used by
God in the eternal realm in ways that
we don't even understand.
You know, these are things that are beyond
our comprehension, and yet it seems to be
the case that God is doing a definite
work inside of us here to prepare us
for something in the hereafter.
Steve, what would you say to the individual
that may be listening who has a sight
of the holiness of God, and when they
look at themselves, they quite frankly just see
how unholy they are.
What word of encouragement might you have for
them?
Well, that's a great thing, really, because that's
exactly what happens.
When you see the Lord, you realize how
far you are away from His standard and
the way that He is.
But there is a freedom in that, because
God loves sinners.
He really does love us, and all He
asks of us is to fight.
That's all He's asking is to strive towards
holiness, to do our best to live a
life pleasing to Him, and to do our
utmost to repent of sin and to turn
away from the things of this world and
to turn to Him.
As long as we are in that battle,
God is pleased with our lives.
Amen.
Steve Gallagher, thanks so much for talking to
us about the need to be holy as
He is holy.
I'm happy to be here.